Benchrest in Canada
BR News => WBSF - World Benchrest Shooting Federation Events => Topic started by: RobS on October 27, 2013, 01:45:24 PM
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Below is the copied motion for the selection of individuals for WBC competition.
I understand that this would only be used when the space for competitors is less than the number interested. My question is this. Is there still a limit on the number of competitors one country can have? If not it looks like one country could flood the WBC with say 50 or 100 applicants that may have been able to shoot Grand aggs , in the USA for instance with 100-200 enterants , finish mid pac and have say 300 points and apply to the WBC for a postion. Would this person be competing against another individual from a country where BR is less popular and shoot aggs against 10 to 20 shooters win very agg and end up with a max of 120 points?
I suppose that the WBC is trying to qualify the highest quality of shooter but I can see the potential for some problems. Do the member countries that participate in the WBC have to sanction the individual shooters that apply and if so is it not up the that country to field its best competitors?
I am sure the motion is incomplete in the explanation and the Canadian shooters who attended the meeting can fill in the blanks.
Rob
lMotion to revise WBC Qualifying - Oct. 20, 2013
lln .egards to individual qualifying for WBC events, should there be more candidates than WBC allocated
team positions; the committee recommendsthat a formalqualifyinB pro8ram be implemented.
ilhis qualifying program will consist ofcandidates accumulating points by attending Benchrest group
matches in the qualifving vear, which is the year prior to the WBC events, Candidates will be ranked by
ftheir accumulated points, with the final team selection conducted in accordance to this ranking. Those
runable
to attend the WBC event will be replaced by the next highest ranking candidates.
I
fualifyinc
Procram:
I . Competitors may selecttheir best 5 Grand AgSre8etes ofthe year.
. All matches are eligible, with a special note thatfor the Kelbly Super Shoot, only finishinB places
l throu8h 125 in the Grand A8gregates are eligible for points.
LV, HV, Sporter Grand Agg.egates are eligible.
1 point is awarded for each competitor the candidate places above in the Grand Aggregate,
It is the responsibility ofeach candidate to submittheir official match results tothe WBC
delegate for inclusion in the qualifyinC program,
. A finaltally ofaccumulated points will be made available byyear end ofthe qualifying year.
. Ties between two candidates will be determined bywho had the smallest Grand Aggregate of
the 6 chosen Grand Aggregates, with the smallerGrand Aggregate takingthe higher qualirying
position.
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Robert, I believe what you have copied and pasted was decided by the 8 man Canadian contingent in Sydney. This qualifying process is for the Canadian team qualifying only.
I think we need to wait to get full clarification. I have a few questions in regards to what you posted.
Calvin
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This is for Canada only. We have been advised we can send 12 to St. Louis in 2015.
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I thought this was initiated by the WBSF to apply to all countries. I missunderstood. This is a directive by Canada for Canadian shooters. Makes sense to me.
So any NBRSA, IBS, BRSC etc match or is sanctioning body needed? Can any combination of grand aggs be used or must for example an LV and HV agg from the same match be used.
Rob
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Here is the actual resolution:
WBC Qualifying Resolution (http://www.benchrest.ca/uploads/World_Qualifying_Resolution.pdf)
Can be any match including un-sanctioned.
Can be any (6) LV, HV or Sporter Grand Aggs. Can be from same shoot or any combination of shoots.
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Thanks for the clarification Rick.
So who wants to go to the East/West? NBRSA Nats?
Robert, the Cactus has been VERY GOOD to you. I take it that may be your first 2 Grand Aggs.............
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Cal
The system will favor those who shoot at bigger US matches, and maybe it should. I don't know. As interest increases in BR in Canada there will be more competition for WBC positions. That, I feel is a good thing. This ranking system will create a more serious and competitive environment for those interested in competing at the world level. I like it. I hope there will be enough interest in representing our country in world competition that we need to use it.
For me personally it won't change anything. It seems I like to go to shoots where I will likely get my ass handed to me. That's the only way I learn. To see what others are doing right and keep trying.
The only down side is the fact that people unable to travel to big matches may be at a disadvantage when it comes time to add up the points. But no system is perfect. The USA shooters complain about their selection system too. Over all I think its a move in the right direction.
Rob
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Robert I agree with everything you have said. I know there may be the "why are we including non Canadian matches".
The big thing is to send those that are committed to the sport and who are willing to put the time and hard work into the sport.
The program may not be perfect. Like you said it is a start.
I know I have a few challenges ahead of me at this time but I have decided 2015 is a chance of a lifetime for me. If that means having to dip into my line of credit to try and make the team it will be worth the effort. I will not say one day " I should have done this or that".
So I encourage anyone who wants to possibly have the opportunity to represent there country in 2015 in St.Louis, get out there and travel to a few big matches.
I do have a possible suggestion for the future team Canada qualifying but I will address that in person with the members who have travelled to prior world's before I pass that info on.
Calvin
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I am happy to see that this kind of rank system is becoming neccesary in this country. It tells me there is increased interest in the sport. We see it prominently in Alberta due to the efforts of Rick and others and I am happy to see more competition as it will raise the bar for everyone. I hope that what ever system used would be seen as fair to all but nothing is perfect. Most important in my mind is the ability to put forward our best and most competitive teams not just the members that can affort it. 2015 will most likely see a peak in interest due to the location and this motion is timely.
Rob
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Couldn’t help but respond to this thread. Competing for Canada in the Worlds isn’t about “the ability to put forward our best and most competitive teams not just the members that can afford it”. Having competed in the last five WBC events on four continents, finishing 1st in 100 yards at France and 10th and 13th in 2-guns at France and Austria respectively, I understand both sides of this story. Canadian team members who have travelled to WBC events have also shown that there were no free rides taken, with two WBC world records set by Canadians, team and individual members who proudly stood on the podium with medals while the Canadian national anthem was played, and others who have achieved difficult top ten finishes in WBC 2-guns. I won’t mention names but if you don’t know who these folks are I suggest you take a closer look at what we’ve accomplished for Canada.
Yes I want us to put forward the best competitive teams, and I think the ranking scheme we decided in Australia will serve that purpose. But please don’t disrespect those of us who represented Canada and worked to secure sponsorships and sacrificed our own funds to get us to this stage where there are more raised hands than team positions available.
None of us are rich, like our team members who paid to compete in the U.S., Austria, South Africa, France and Australia, we just made a choice to represent Canada when few wanted to step up to the plate to make similar sacrifices. You have to travel to big shoots to qualify, that’s what WBC events are about. You’ll need to dip into your line of credit and if that isn’t an option, you’ll have to make hard choices. This year we chose WBC 2013 over buying a new used truck and completing some much needed home repairs. For WBC events we have endured cumulative days of airport delays, months securing firearms permits, and days recovering lost luggage (i.e., that missing gun case containing a Bat action, Scoville stock, March scope and two bolts).
There is something very special about watching the wind flags from the other side of the world, with the Canadian flag on your back and knowing the world is watching you. But it isn’t easy.
Driving to St. Louis is easy by comparison. For those who take the opportunity to compete in WBC13 in 2015, I trust you will remain engaged to make your own sacrifices and raise additional funds to send three committed and competitive Canadian teams to WBC14 in New Zealand in 2017.
Vera
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Well I am not gonna hold back any punches. I will be the first to admit that I will and am going to be a Bench Rest hypocrite.
Like I said I am putting all my eggs in one basket for 2015. It is the ONLY AFFORDABLE opportunity for many of us to try and compete for Team Canada.
This whole team Canada thing has been a fiasco ever since Canada has been involved. I am fielding questions about who can make the decisions that are made in regards to selecting a team.
Heck I think I will try and start Team Poland........
Regardless it is what it is.
No one is forgetting what team Canada members have done in the past. The past is the past and today is today. Let's just move forward and select the best shooters possible.
I would like to personally see one spot awarded to a Canadian shooter regardless of traveling to major shoots awarded a position. It would be a shame to have a shooter who only shot in Canada who out aggs anyone else and cannot be on the team.
JMO
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Work goes into the worlds by people committed to the team(s) even when they are not going to the event! I personally didn't realize how much effort goes into making this happen until having gone through it. Many thanks to Dave & Bill in this regard.
With so much interest for the upcoming worlds in St. Louis, the qualifying process changes are going to prove out a good thing. I hope the interest carries through to 2017 in New Zealand.
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Obviously WBC qualifying is a hot button for many. Keep it civil and on topic.
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A big thanks goes out to those who have done all the work and sacrifice to attend the previous worlds , I had a great time and really appreciate being able to stand on the shoulders of those who went before , I never thought it was a fiasco at all ,quite the contrary all the veterans helped us newbies feel right at home . it was great to meet George , Vera and Andy, looking forward to seeing them at the big shoots around the country this year,
as for the revised system of qualifying, it was big of the WBC competitors from previous Worlds to step up and back the points system and for go any points for their previous input and commitment ,very classy.
I think we now have about as level a playing field as could be had given the circumstances.
we are all looking for the same thing in the end , to travel around ,compete and try to finish high enough to qualify for the world team in ST Louis in 2015,if all goes well we should be able to field the best teams possible.
I suspect that this may only be a problem for the US worlds , but really it is a nice problem to have and hopefully by the time the new Zealand worlds come around
we will have even more competitors vying for spots on the teams to go there.
thanks to the efforts of Rick P and other shooters/coaches out here, Bench rest is growing in the west so hopefully we can keep the momentum going and continue to add more competitors all across the country.
Hugh
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"This whole team Canada thing has been a fiasco ever since Canada has been involved. I am fielding questions about who can make the decisions that are made in regards to selecting a team."
I would like to see the above quote explained. What fiasco are we talking about? Getting a Canadian team started was largely due to one person in the beginning and it was a chore to get enough people interested in going, let alone organize a team and register the Canadian team with WBSF. It was through his efforts, that this all got started. He was always glad to hand over the reigns to anyone interested in doing the thankless job it is. Now through the work of others who have taken up the cause it has continued to grow in interest. I fail to see a Fiasco. Now as things grow and hopefully keep growing obviously things will change and procedures will need to be set in how we address the changes so that we do this in the best interest of promoting the sport nationally and as a nation within the international community.
Someone can correct me if I am wrong on this but to the best of my knowledge, the members who signed up and paid their memberships to the World team are the ones who are in the position to make the rules.
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I see the word's I have used have ruffled a few feathers. Do I have facts to back what I said? No. Should I have said what I did? No. I am just basing what I said from what I have heard from people.
I will call it the way I see it right now.
There is a rift between the East and West. The West is working at seeing the sport of Bench Rest grow in Canada. I am talking right now, today.
Is there any growth in the East?
How many shoots are held in Ontario/Quebec? What I see on the internet by the results is Canadian shooters spending more time in the US supporting them. This is prevalent in Eastern Canada.
I will get to the Initial start of this thread qualifying for Team Canada. I like my Western brothers and sisters that I shoot with. Many of them have shot for team Canada this past world's and previous World's. I understand the decisions that were made this past World's to have a fair process in place to qualify for Team Canada. Let us all be realistic, the ONLY time this will be an issue is when the World's are in North America. Let's hope I am wrong but that is fact. I know many shooters who are Team Canada capable but are not in the financial position. Yes unfortunately we live in a Country where being a firearm owner is almost like committing a Mortal sin.
We have to be realistic and know that there will be many people who hardly shoot matches that may want to go and shoot for Team Canada in St. Louis in 2015. Before you know it there is a FLOOD of people stepping up to the plate. So there needed to be something put in place. A process was put in place this year. It is what it is.
Now I agree and disagree with the process. I agree that we should be sending the best shooters possible if there is more than the allotted amount wanting to go. I agree and disagree with the process that has been implemented. There is talk about commitment to team Canada and the program outside of when the World's are held in North America.
Well if there is mention of committment why is it so difficult to have a sole Team Canada qualifying match in Canada? If one is committed to being a part of team Canada and represent there country they would commit to this match. What does the Super Shoot, NBRSA Nationals, Cactus, etc.... any of the major US matches have to do with Team Canada? Nothing. Do you see the US using a Canadian shoot? No. Well I guess because we do not really have any shoots that would attract them. Why do we not have more matches in Canada? Because we are hell bent on supporting matches across in the US and NOT trying to grow the sport all across this country. I know there is growth in the West but what about the East? Is anyone doing anything to grow the sport in Eastern Canada?
I am just tossing this out there.
I am going to ruffle more feathers but this is my thought on this subject.
My western brothers, Rick, Hugh, Dan, Robert, I think you know where I stand on this matter. I am with the process that is in place to qualify but I still would like to see Team Canada selected from Canadian ONLY shoots. There are a LOT more people I know who have done a lot for this game in Western Canada who feel the same way. I am just voicing for those people. I will take the heat. I like hearing "Yanchycki. Oh that A-hole"
I believe it is possible if the few that have posted mentioning past performance, or committment to the program outside of the US are willing to committ to being open to Team Canada qualifying being done in our own wonderful country.
Like I said there is a rift between East and West just like there is/was between the North and South in the US.
I am a NOBODY in this sport in Comparison to a lot of Canadian shooters of the past or even today. I hold no records. I have won 4-2 guns in my short career. 2 this past year in The BRSC Nationals and the MB Provincials. If memory serves me right I have won 4 of the last 7 shoots I have competed in. I dare challenge anyone who believes they think about this sport more than I do today.........
You either love me or hate me when I tell it the way I see it.
This is JMO.
Calvin
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You have valid questions, some we foresaw years ago, and some concerns were not on our radar screen. In Australia we discussed the need to have the qualifications proposal reviewed by all stakeholders. So this discussion is right on the mark. I’ll attempt to answer your questions in as personal a way as I can.
Apparently many of us in the East are unaware of a rift between East and West, at least the topic doesn’t come up at our shoots. I knew there would be a healthy East/West rivalry come out of this; however we compete against many friends but that doesn’t ever come between our friendship.
Frankly until very recently we were unaware of the great job that Rick has been doing to increase memberships in the West. We could definitely learn from this, we have steadily lost almost all our local ranges in the East due to increasingly rigid range restrictions. Concerns over declining memberships is an ongoing discussion at our matches. The subject of a different thread, I suspect it’s as much an urban issue as any.
In previous worlds we’ve had representation between East and West evenly distributed through our teams. I can’t speak for 1996 but Bill made this a priority in 2005, mixing our folks together perhaps to quieten any perceived issues. In 2007 John VM and Lawrence W selected the teams as they were not eligible for participation due to their residence, I facilitated the process but their decision was final. In other years the teams fell together subjectively based on how folks were shooting leading up to picking the teams.
We’re all patriotic. Flag waving on the overpass when our fallen soldiers come home from Afghanistan patriotic. Bring the Canadian flag around the world patriotic. I love your passion for our country, let’s just say we’re all patriotic.
In Austria we foresaw the day when sponsorships would be available enough to pay for a competitor’s fare to travel to far off shoots, and we would need a form of choosing teams when the flood gates opened. We didn’t think this would take the form of St. Louis, but it has the same result. Then we chose the qualification that past supporters of WBC shoots, either working behind the scenes, raising sponsorships, or paying money to travel, would be the deciding factor. This year we agreed to leave this criteria behind in favour of a method that allowed the same chances for anyone, regardless of their past participation or lack thereof.
Why do we shoot then in the U.S. in addition to our Canadian matches? Because we love the sport. Hall of Fame is on both our bucket lists, easier said than done, I shot a .1600 agg at the Nationals in Weikert and got second place, missed my first point by that much. Wish we had more time to gain points for the Eastern Region Shooter of the Year (NBRSA Eastern Region includes Ontario and Quebec). Winning the SuperShoot is on my bucket list, I got my top 20 patch but want more.
Why can’t we just shoot one match in Canada to decide the worlds team? We decided to let everyone pick their own aggs so the Western guys didn’t have to fly/drive to the Eastern shoots and vice versa. We don’t want to make the long trip to Rosebud any more than the Western folks want to travel to Elmira for the equivalent of a week-end match. It’s as simple as that.
We thought about using smallest aggregate, but this varies from range to range and with time. Didn’t seem fair. Although we settled on using it for a tie-breaker.
Also we are using six aggregates of the shooter’s choice, rather than one shoot, because sometimes a gun malfunction or error at a single match can take you out. That isn’t fair. I think we have improved on the U.S. qualification process in this method, they are required to travel to five pre-selected matches and if they miss one and have a malfunction in another they are eliminated from the worlds, period.
Lastly, why not just compare our results from the Canadian shoots, after all, the best of the East shoot at Elmira, and the best of the West shoot at the BRSC Nationals. Fact is, unfortunately, that these are small shoots. Prior to long gun registration these shoots attracted large numbers of U.S. shooters, increasing the size of the shoots. This raises the match pressure. I think you’ll agree that the large matches are different than our local shoots where we compete against our local friends. The worlds are about competing against the world at a large match. To see whether someone is capable of finishing a large shoot they need to shoot at a large match. So the big shoots get more weighting than the small ones, for a very practical reason. There’s no favouratism over the U.S. shoots here, its about size of the shoots. Western folks can travel to big shoots in the U.S. Western States, and Eastern folks can travel to big shoots in the U.S. Eastern States, and we will compare the results. But the small shoots just don’t add the match pressure needed to demonstrate whether somebody can perform at the worlds.
Hope this helps explain.
Vera
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Thanks Vera. Great to have your first hand account here.
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Well said Vera. Thanks for all the hard work you and the team has done.
As recent as October's Elmira we had a US shooter--Bill B. Border issues have probably discouraged U.S. shooters from coming across. Bill had problems coming north and then had problems getting back across their border.
The country is ten provinces plus territories---not East and West.
Homer
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Calvin, I don't think you are an "a-hole" or anywhere near that. I do think a good discussion should be had on this issue and we should be able to discuss the issues without unnecessary eye poking in general. I love the idea of a completely Canadian qualification match (Now I will show you the issue), it should be held in Alberta!or if you are in the east, Elmira! I have to agree with Vera, I have never felt or heard animosity of the westerners except maybe when Opal beat me by .010" for small group at the Super Shoot. But I got over that, eh. The issue is distance and time and face it, if the match was held in Alberta or Elmira, would you get 40 shooters total. If this was the only real qualifying match, one gun break down or lost firearm on the plane sure could ruin someones outlook of competing. This would be considered a local match in the US, but would have the time and expense of a major shoot in the US. It is more economics than anything else. Right now the west is growing but its economy is doing well also. It was not like this when Ontario was booming. Years ago I can remember going to 12 shoots a year without leaving the province but the economy was doing well and the government was not imposing ridiculous restrictions on ranges near populations. Now several have given up as the restrictions were to costly for rifle ranges to meet. Times are tough even on the American side in traditional areas of benchrest. It has been tough on all shooting sports in a lot of areas if you look around.
I did enjoy going to the World shoot in 2005 and if you get the opportunity to go, then go out and try your best to qualify. It is an experience you will enjoy and remember all your life. How my wife put up with me for those 2 years, I do not know, but she did.
I would again have to agree with Vera, the world teams have always been pretty close to even as far as westerners and easterners and I believe this has been a good thing, it has given us opportunity to meet each other and work together for a greater goal. When I came back from the World shoot I sure had an appreciation for all involved and felt I had gained several new friends, in western Canada, Namibia, South Africa, France, England, New Zealand... well I can't name them all.
Let's discuss how we can make the most of these opportunities by raising money and supporting the world team so that those who do have the ability to go and are successfully competing, can go even if it may be in Australia, South Africa or New Zealand, not just a rush to the closer matches because it is the only time that I can afford.(I am not trying to single out Calvin, most of us are not in a position to to do this on our own) We should be all striving to put our best shooters forward.
After writing all this I think Vera is doing a pretty good job of speaking on this and I am just rambling.
To all the team members, welcome back, thanks for doing your best in representing Canada. Now go get some sleep before the jet lag catches you. :)
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Hello Vera.
Just in case the Lawrence W. you are referring to in your post is me. I would like to clarify.
The issue of whether I am eligible to shoot for the Canadian team was resolved by the WBC in 2008. The WBC determined that I am a Canadian citizen with a Canadian passport that also happens to own property in Canada, therefore as per the WBC rules, I am a Canadian and eligible to shoot for the Canadian team. Nothing has changed with my status since 2008, therefore I am still eligible to represent Canada on the Canadian team.
The reason that I could not make it to France in 2009 was that my finances imploded and I couldn't even afford to attend local matches. It has been a couple of very tough years, but fortunately in the past year my financial situation has come roaring back and is now the strongest that it has ever been. For the past year, I have been shooting every match that I could attend and I finally have an LV that shoots as well as my HV.
I am interested in earning my way onto a 2015 Canadian team and proudly representing my country (Canada) and my Canadian flag.
Lawrence
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Hi Lawrence, good to hear. I remember your needing to pull out of the worlds, sorry to know you roughed it for a while (haven't we all been there) and glad there's no issue with WBC status to qualify for Canada.
The country is ten provinces plus territories---not East and West - well said Dave!
John, you never ramble, miss seeing you at the matches, always a good competitor and still engaged. I never knew jet lag until I got home, Dan how do you do it!
Calvin, thanks for your courage to speak your mind and call things the way you see it, the forum isn't the best way of communicating but I know you can discuss in more detail with the guys out West. We're all on the same team.
Go Canada.
Vera
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Thanks for your kind words Vera. Will you and George be attending the NBRSA Nationals in Holton this year?
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Vera
I feel in need to respond to you. You most likely stated what others were thinking. I read your reply to to my post yesterday and was shocked. I wanted to post a reply yesterday but thought it would be best to be more careful in my choice of words and wording. I feel I have been misunderstood. I in no way meant any disrespect to shooters who have represented Canada in the past or present.
“the ability to put forward our best and most competitive teams not just the members that can afford it”. This quote was not directed to anyone but in fact the feeling I had while competing in a prior WBC, not performing as well as I thought I should and thinking that I was there because I had put forward the money and that there were probably better representatives for the country.
Everyone who has shot the WBC has sacrificed time, family and finances to represent our country, and I appreciate that. I am proud of the accomplishments that all of you, my team members have achieved whether it be personal bests, group records, Agg wins, or two gun placements. Hell I scan the NBRSA magazine every month looking first for Canadian shooters. I'm sure we all do. Whether WBC, US matches big or small or Canadian shoots we are all happy to see our collective successes.
All of this being said. I stand by what I meant if not what I said or how it can across. I do apologize for what came out. In an idealistic world BR teams would have full funding to represent their countries and the only determining factor for team selection would be performance. You may or may not agree with this. We know this will never happen. Finance as well as time commitment will always be issues in this sport.
I don't want anyone to feel like a BR hypocrite because they have not represented the country at prior WBCs. I didn't like the idea that prior attendance at WBC was a determining factor in future selection but I understood the prior commitment needed to be recognized. As I have said I hoped that there was a system of selection that all could see as fair.
I read and reread the above quote and I think I see where i went wrong in the statement. " the ability to put forward our best and most competitive teams " is maybe where it should have ended. Maybe it shouldn't have been started in the first place. I see where the rest of it comes across as dismissive to the commitments that all have made whether financial or otherwise. This was not the intent.
In our country there may be an East West political rift. In BR in my mind anyway there is not. I look forward to shooting with and against everyone out East. We don't get to do it near enough in this country. I wish it were possible to have a range in this country that was convenient for all. Again will never happen and we will be dependent on US shoots to catch up and compete with each other. My competitive nature has gotten me into trouble before and at least Calvin doesn't have to feel like the only A Hole. We are well represented out West.
Again to anyone whom I have slighted I do apologize.
Robert Seemann
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Bill it is not that I have a totally different approach. I do see the benefits of using larger US shoots and the points system. I also do see how we can use a Canadian component to determine the teams. I also see that there may not be an easy way.
Using the larger shoots because of the higher number of competitors and the caliber of shooters does play a role to an extent. The biggest thing at this time that I see is if you want to win or place well one better be on there A GAME.
What is the difference if we used solely Canadian shoots?
Yes we do not have the numbers and I have to be CAREFUL when I say this the current Hall of Fame shooters from the NBRSA/IBS that are at the top of the leader board consistently.
Canada is a vast country just like the USA is. If memory serves me right, the last few US teams were choosen from shoots in the east and the west. The Cactus, The Rattlesnake, The Shamrock, East/West, and the NBRSA Nationals. Those are solely NBRSA shoots if I am correct.
So to say that we cannot determine Team Canada from solely Canadian shoots I do not buy it. Using points by the number of competitors one beats cuts out a lot of people. If one can AFFORD to travel they will be able to make the big shoots where there is the opportunity to make huge points. If one does not have that luxury of being able to financially afford it, they are out of the picture.
Living in the west the closest shoot for me in the US that would be worth going to try and gain points is the East/West. A good hard 17 hours drive with stops only for fuel, drive thru and a pee break. I am pretty sure I can do that in one day as I drove from Kansas City in 14 hours door to door. I guess I could fly as well but there is those costs. The fellas in Alberta have the Cactus. 2 days drive or a flight as well.
In the east how far would one have to go?
Honestly I think it should be about any Bench Rest shooter in Canada who has ever wanted to wear the Maple Leaf having a chance whether they can travel or not.
Anyways, what I would like to see is drop the points, NO point system. Use ones agg's. Keep it the same using 6 of your top Grand Agg's. Any combination of LV and HV. This way regardless of the amount of shooters at a shoot everyone has a chance as long as they are paid up and part of the Canadian Bench Rest team thru OFAH.
In the west we have enough shoots that it could be done soley with Candian shoots. In the east how many shoots are held? 1 or 2? if it is 2 even better. Then we go with the best of 2 Canadian shoots and ones choosing for a shoot in the US. If eastern Canada had 3 group shoots then we could do it solely in Canada. But in this case if there is not, we use 2 Canadian shoots and 1 US shoot. This way it allows one to shoose there shoot in the US. You may have a range that you favor or do particularily well at, well I guess that is where you will probably do your US shoot.
Finally like I said I would like to see the final spot a wildcard spot in the points system qualifying that is in place at this time. The wild card is regardless of where one shoots Canada or the US, that spot is filled by the top agg. Take your 6 top aggs in LV and HV ONLY. The best agg wins the Wild Card spot. Again you should be paid up with the Canadian Benchrest Team thru OFAH to qualify. Does that NOT make one spot a competitive spot? You could travel in the points system but have a poor points performance, but you still out agg everyone who did not travel and decided to put there eggs in just trying for the Wild Card spot.
Does this make sense??????
As for our transplanted Canadians who live in the US and have been cleared by WBSF, they should have to shoot 1 Canadian shoot in the AGG qualifying process I mentioned earlier.
Regardless, using the excuse that we just do not have the shoots in Canada or the caliber of shooters up here does not cut it for me. If you want to make Team Canada you WILL give it your best effort at our few smaller Canadian shoots.
Like I said I have not near the accomplishments as many of the Eastern Canadian shooters who have put lots of time, effort, and money into the sport and Team Canada but man we need to INCLUDE every Canadian. I may not hold a World Record, or won an agg at the world's, or even shot a teen agg(no I have NEVER shot a teen agg, been very close) but I know I would do the BEST of my ability to represent our country and try and make the team.
Lawrence mentioned about stepping aside in 2009 for reasons, well I should step aside from the sport entirely for a few years as well for similar reasons but be damned if I am going to let the opportunity of a LIFETIME go unchanced. The lawyers will get there money, she will get hers, and I will do what I can to try and make Team Canada.
Like I said I am not just speaking this for myself but for every other Canadian who may not want to speak up, or may not be too computer savy, or may not want to rock the boat. Well I have spoken.
I am NOT saying the current process that was implemented is wrong (Heck I have talked with the AB guys about it at one point in time or another and liked it) but we need to make it a process that all Canadians can have the opportunity regardless of there financial situation.
That is it. All I can say on this.
Calvin
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Canadian world team members must be the best we can send to compete against the top dogs of the U.S., South Africa, Australia, France and another dozen or more countries. Canadians are considered among the best shooters in the world and we have a real chance of fielding winning teams at WBC13.
At St. Louis these 12 Canadians will each displace other Canadians who want to go.
That’s what makes the U.S. team so competitive, they took the spots of a lot of good shooters and they are shamed if they don’t perform. What does a stroke look like? The face of the guy who shot four on the record in South Africa, had a rain shot in France, cross-fired on a blank target in Australia.
Does that sound harsh? We play nicer as Canadians, but those of us who know the feeling of not doing well at the worlds can tell you it’s no easier to come home without finishing in the top.
Today we’re debating the fact that competing against each other in small shoots in Canada is all that’s needed to pick teams capable of performing under world pressure. I contend that basing this choice on who does well at a Canadian shoot against 20 or so other competitors will not accomplish our objective, at least not if we want to field competitive teams. Multiple countries appear at the large U.S. shoots, not just the Americans, and the presence of the big dogs brings match pressure. There’s no better proving ground.
The idea of one ‘wild card’ spot for small agg doesn’t make sense. The idea of agg comparison not being meaningful has been discussed. This sounds like having a last chance qualifier for guys who don’t travel outside the country. If you insist on having one spot on Team ‘C’ chosen from ‘only in Canada’ results, then I’ll lay money that somebody who has experience at the big shoots will take that prize home anyway. Sounds like this is a moot point of discussion.
Is the argument really that some folks do not have the time or resources to travel? Surely time isn’t an issue, we have very little discretionary time but will make the time during 2014 to get to the matches that we need to in order to qualify.
So it must be all about money. Not having enough money to shoot is really unfair. Realizing you’re running out of bullets or primers mid-match is distressing. It really sucks when the top 20 shooters all put in teen aggs at a Nationals when our shot-out barrels don’t have a chance of grouping under a quarter inch in trigger-pull conditions. Living with a broken (fill in the blank) at home because you bought a new rest, action, stock takes creative justification. Looks like many of us are on the same page.
Not having enough money still doesn’t negate the issue that besting shooters on a home range doesn’t qualify you for the worlds, and it won’t demonstrate you are capable of handling the pressure of a big shoot against the big dogs that will show up at the worlds. If you haven’t shot with the match pressure of a big shoot then maybe you shouldn’t be booting another Canadian off the WBC bus.
If you are positive that you would qualify if given the chance but don’t have enough resources to travel, you can still be resourceful. You might need to share gas and a hotel room with somebody else who’s going, ask to stay with a friend who lives nearby, stay at the range, cut discretionary spending, or work to get sponsorship funds to make it a possibility to go. We’ve done all the above.
Vera
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I must say that I have read all these threads with interest and that I am proud to be a Canadian.
At this point I think before anything else gets started or decided, we should find out who is thinking of going to the World Shoot in St Louis. If I recall correctly you will need to be a member of the world team and you will have to have a passport. If I recall correctly the competitor chosen also had to come up with close to a grand for entrance fees and uniforms etc etc.. Please add anything else that applies so that everyone knows what they are getting involved into.
I for one am considering getting back into the race, I still have some 8208 and a bunch of Watson bullets getting old. I think I even have a new barrel that I haven't tried. :)
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I started training for St. Louis on the flight home from Australia! :o :o ;)
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The only thing I can say is I spoke up and voiced my opinion. There are things that I disagree with just like many disagree with my thoughts on this.
When I got into this sport I never wanted to get into the politics of it. I JUST WANTED TO SHOOT. I realize now that the glory is fading because of the politics. I just wanted to see the sport grow. Fix a few things. Voice an opinion from those that I have talked to about how things were done.
I thought this game was about AGGS. Well I guess I was wrong. There is nothing more to say.
We can debate this until the cows come home but the forum is not the place. Takes to much time and effort.
I apologize to all that I may have ruffled. A process is in place. It will be what it will be.
Good luck to all who decide to qualify for Team Canada. I just hope that those who qualify in 2014 still put the effort in 2015 and practice outside of just the shoots. Nothing worse than being hot and then cold.
Over and out.
Calvin
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If there gone Bill . Does that mean there's a chance we can get BRSC nation wide again ? That would be cool
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BRSC Memberships
http://benchrestforum.ca/index.php?topic=627.0
If someone wants to start a thread on renewing BRSC in the East I am all for it. Should be in the BRSC section though.
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Calvin, you have stated your opinion and made a good argument, others have come and stated their opinion and made a good argument. Why after reading both sides would you give up if you thought their needs to be improvement. We all understand that there could be improvement, but sometimes it is not as simple as it looks. No one has shot you down, they are just giving you their experience in what has worked and what has not worked and why they think there are issues. Time to review and rethink of a better way.
Now if you are insinuating that you are not going to try out for the world team because of other peoples opinions in an open discussion than you have just created your own excuse not to go. We do not even know how many are actually signing up yet! Chin up man, politics are politics, shooting is shooting. If you didn't sign up for politics than why let it bother your shooting. As they say Rome was not built in a day, and the road to glory is never a smooth one.
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John, the politics will not stop me from trying to make the world team. Politics is what it is, politics, . There are a lot more factors. It is a commitment for the next 2 years. Ideally I think to have a chance one is going to have to attend 2 major matches. The NBRSA or IBS Nationals and for me probably the East/West. It is not the issue of vacation time it is whether the pocket book can swing it. I have components (powder, bullets, primers, barrels) to get me there. The bullet situation is getting me a bit nervous....... will I be able to get more of the bullets I have been successful with down the road?????
Then in 2015 it can be almost a 3 week committment. If you shoot the Nationals and the World's. A HUGE commitment.
This discussion has nothing to do with the decision it is reality that has more to do with it.
Calvin
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Calvin, if you qualify for the Worlds, then in 2015 you forget the nationals and if you don't qualify for the World then you shoot the nationals. Like you said here is your opportunity, are you going to try or regret not trying. :)