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1  BR Discussions / Centerfire Discussions / Re: 6ppc fire forming alternatives on: April 22, 2013, 10:25:50 AM
Hydraulic sizing
Many years ago I wanted a AI gun built and was told by the G-smith to bring him a couple of loaded cartridges before he chambered the gun for me.
I was a bit confused and asked him how could I have a cartridge before I had the gun to fire-form the brass in!
He said in time Id have a better grasp on doing things with guns but due to my age he would explain how and why to do forming without a gun.
The following was his system and reasoning.
He claimed any good gun smith, worth his salt, would want a re-sized and loaded cartridge made from the dies the gun owner would use in the future
due to the fact no two dies were ex-actually the same. So he could chamber it to fit the cartridge being used in future

He said, buy the brass your going to use and follow the instructions in my previous post.
Now to address a couple of questions Ive gotten;
I now use a guide that fits over the die to ensure the plunger is in perfect alignment with the mouth of the neck (but it will work without)
And when making/fitting the plunger depending on what brass your using it has to be fitted as tight as possible inside the neck (this is brass manufacture  specific)..  remember to use a dead blow hammer
some of the new brass will take 2 or 3 hits to fully form to the die.

This happened to me about 45 years ago and the mans name was Shurla Burrie from Edmonton. (a great smith, friend, and mentor)
God rest his sole.
Happy to share
tom








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2  BR Discussions / Centerfire Discussions / Re: 6ppc fire forming alternatives on: April 10, 2013, 02:32:00 PM
I'm no expert, but here is how I do fire-forming without using a gun.
I set up a sizing die in a press in my shop remove the de-priming, neck sizing rod from the die.
I prime all the cases I want to do with spent primers.
Cut a piece of tin small enough to put inside the shell holder to cover the hole (I have placed a small screw in to fill the hole) to hold the primer in the case.
Fill the cases to the base of the neck with water.
Put in press and push hand to the full sizing position.
Now the cartridge is in the new sizing die.
Then slide a brass punch, which I (turn/have turned) to be .001 smaller then the inside of the case mouth to the water.
Then one hit with a dead blow hammer and vi-la sized beautifully ... after a few youll know how hard to hit, its not overly hard.
Remove, pour out water, de-prime and dry.   
I call this hydraulic forming and once case are primed and filled with water you can do about 100 an hour and not a lot of water comes out when you hit the punch if the fit is somewhat tight.
Just how I do it...
Tom
 
3  BR Discussions / Centerfire Discussions / Re: Canadian Barrel Makers..... on: February 22, 2013, 03:44:16 PM
BobR, I'm don't know many of the shooters by name, but a couple are Dale Janzen, a fellow named Jackson..
Any of them ring a bell? I just see their names on barrels as they go through the shop.
Any of them any good?  Ill try and get back with a few other names.
Tom

4  BR Discussions / Centerfire Discussions / Re: Canadian Barrel Makers..... on: February 22, 2013, 02:23:22 PM
RP, your possibly right, but to clarify 90% of Ron's barrels are made for jacketed bullet shooters. I know in the past 2 or 3 years the long range shooters 800-1000 yard and the 1800 yard shooter have discovered the barrels and more and more are going that way.
And they possibly not what your looking for, in your discipline of shooting. I just wondered if anyone has tried one and hoped to get some
feed back about it.
I'm absolutely sure your right about "sheep" knowing things! I would believe that in search of accuracy the "sheep" have tried every thing there is available.
If nothing else this thread was interesting, with many points of view shared.
I was not knocking anyone! And I'm sorry if that's what anyone felt it was not the intent.
I just wondered why no-one has ever talked about it on this forum, which Ive watch for a while now.
It would be nice it some of the shooters would post a thread about what they use; barrel, action, chamber, brass, powder, primers etc. so some of us
dummy's can see whats used in this specialty discipline.
Years ago played with both a sand dog and desert dog, which I think are predecessors for your sport.
sst
5  BR Discussions / Centerfire Discussions / Re: Canadian Barrel Makers..... on: February 22, 2013, 11:53:50 AM
RP, yes I'm a believer not only of Ron's barrels but cut rifling and that's only my opinion. No different then others believing in what they use.
What I was trying to convey is that until a person tries different made rifles they may be missing what their in search of.
Because I like most are in a constant search for the holy grail in accuracy. Ive used at least 100 barrels from various makers including the big name companies.
Ron's barrels are just another one of those opportunity that many in short range bench game have not tried.
I'm not calling anyone sheep, but what I'm saying in all shooting disciplines of the shooting sports, most competitors copy the most successful.
But I do know that their are a few shooter in every group that are willing to experiment with something different ( thinking outside the box) so to speak. And at times these types of people become the most successful in their game.

Which brings me to the re-bar barrel I shoot it in the schultzen game which is BR an off hand shooting with single shot falling block guns, cast plain base bullets and smokeless powder at 200 yrds. Both scoped and sights we also shoot 22 rf at 100 yards
I wouldn't even think of trying a high power cartridge in a piece of re-bar so its pretty limited to that sport. Ive shot it at the Stars and Strips range in Spokane, Sherwood park AB, Raton NM. I have limited time to shoot but try to get to a few shoots every year.
And it shoots better then I can.... 200 yrd with slow lead bullets teach a person about the effects of wind.
Again I'm just letting people know to the best of my knowledge about Rons barrels.
sst

6  BR Discussions / Centerfire Discussions / Re: Canadian Barrel Makers..... on: February 22, 2013, 09:01:48 AM

JMO, your absolutely right! Makers are very set in their ways, not unlike shooters I guess. If someone hasn't won in their discipline of shooting with a makers barrel there is no sense trying them.
But as you said the best way to be is to get what turns you on and your comfortable with.
Each and everyone of us has our own querks, which is good. Its what makes this sport of shooting interesting.
Why I stepped in on this thread was to add a alternative to what most appear to be using.
Just in case someone wants to step up and try something different was my point.
Having fun is what its all about.
tom

7  BR Discussions / Centerfire Discussions / Re: Canadian Barrel Makers..... on: February 21, 2013, 07:38:13 PM
Lee, I am the fellow with the re-bar rifle barrel, and it has shot some incredible groups which was a pleasant surprise with what was done a joke for a match at Raton NM. I was lucky enough to win a few BR matches and events with it. And was surprised that there was a story about it in the Persision Shooting magazine last march. Some claim that article was the reason for the magazines death.
The shop at Ron's is a real eye opener for most first time visitors. Some of the bench rest target are truly incredible, but what I still am amazed at is the off hand Iron sight target shot at 200 yards being 10 shot groups under 4 inches.
A shooter that loves and understands or wonders about the inner workings of a barrel can easily enjoy a visit with Ron and is welcomed.
A few people have trained / learned the art of barrel making in his shop and anyone is welcomed to come and stay and spend time in his shop, Bob jury being on of them.
Pesky, I wont get into a long thing about lapping single point cut rifled barrels, as most people order gain twist which are impossible to lapp. Most of his are approximately 2 to 1 in gain ( 18" to 9" for example).
You are absolutely right about stress relieving steel, all I will say is there is many ways of stress relieving metal for machinabilily and neutralizing steel.
Ron practices one of the methods which work for him.
SST
8  BR Discussions / Centerfire Discussions / Re: Canadian Barrel Makers..... on: February 21, 2013, 04:38:25 PM
Rick, he doesn't lap and believes that single point cut rifled barrels don't require lapping.
I'll try and explain his reasoning:
If a barrel is buttoned there is stresses introduced as the button is pulled or pushed through. Resulting in high and low spots withing the bore. Thus lapping is required to even out the tight spots that are there as a result in that process.
In years past he used this process, and was unhappy with adding stress to the barrel.
He then returned to cut rifling and found that there was a very controlled removal of steel without adding any stress to the barrel.
He has found out that he can cut the rifling so that there is about a half-thousandths choke breach to muzzle, which he believes helps keep the bullet seal solid.
One thing he does in gain twist, which was only done many years ago for black powder guns and was sort of forgotten. A-lot of people think this is useless with modern guns, but many people who shoot long range high power guns have found that barrel life is noticeably longer, some have reported that they get from a third to double the shot count. Ron believes that its due to the fact that there is a reduced pressure start and less bullet slippage then a straight twist barrel. (Which he also makes.) Less torque on the rifling at the breach end.
His answer to people who ask about ``lapping`` is if a barrel is made the right way there is no need for it. And its not a shot at other barrel makers its a conclusion he has come up with after making many thousands of barrels over the last 49 or 50 years.
Many wont agree with any of this, but some of those should just try one and see for them selves.
SST
9  BR Discussions / Centerfire Discussions / Re: Canadian Barrel Makers..... on: February 21, 2013, 01:45:41 PM

Just to clear up what Ive read on here.
 Ron Smith never worked for anyone, he is a self taught barrel maker and built his rifling machine about 1964 and has made many improvements. He produced gain twist and striaght twist barrels in most calibers. He used a single point cutter and makes them out of both chrome moly and stainless steel.
Many people here in the west and in the USA are very familiar and happy with his barrels.
It always amazes me that many Canadian target shooters dont have knowledgew of him or his work.
Maybe some of you guys should give a great Canadian barrel maker a try and see for yourself what you might be missing.
I support the idea of Canadian made and in this case they are second to none.
He has a wait time right now of about 2 months for a barrel blank.
If your interested give him a call at 1-403-631-2405 
SST
10  BR Discussions / Centerfire Discussions / 6.5 Grendel vs 65x47L on: April 27, 2012, 01:29:24 PM
Im looking at building a new bench gun and I know that the grendel was made origianlly for the AR shooters but I'm wondering how it would perform in a good bolt BR.
Other then some of the info on the net I'm wondering if anyone here has tried this cartridge, or the 6.5 x47 and if so were you pleased or disapointed.
Ive spoken to a few fellows state side and some complain about the lapua 6.5x 47 brass and find its rather inconsistant compared to other calibers.
Any advice before a fellow goes ahead with the build.
Thnx
Tom
11  BR Discussions / Rimfire Discussions / SK rf ammo on: June 08, 2010, 09:00:27 PM
Has Anyone used and been happy with SK rifle target ammo at 100 yards.....
I understand some people are having some success with it at 50 yds..
SST
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