Frozen scopes

[Joe Mendham]

 Has anyone had any experience with using a frozen scope ?  I'd like to get a Weaver frozen but can't make up my mind if to go ahead with the project. Any thoughts good or bad would help.

Joe

[Bill Gammon]

My first question, WHY?? If the scope is cooked, freezing will not help. Don't misunderstand me, if you have the capabilities to out shoot the scope, then get a new one. But in the meantime use what you got. If your eyes get bad, like mine, get a stronger power. I used 3 Swindlehurst prepared Leup's for 15 years and never a problem, (that I was aware of), replaced the turrets 3 or 4 times, had them sent to me, AJ told me one time just take out the ball and spring, which I did and differently had no problems. Tony G knows what I am talking about. Will freezing a scope make it better?? might, but I doubt it. I know the first question that comes to your mind, why replace the turrets?? Hell I change scope settings in the middle of a group, if you don't have Faith in your equipment, get rid of it. Just my 2 cents.

[Joe Mendham]

  Bill
  Good points. Just thought I'd try something else and some people seem to be having good luck with frozen scopes.
 I'm also approaching the white cane stage and have used Bumped 36 to 45 Leupolds before, but these seem to be not as clear as my Weaver 36.
 I guess I could always sell a kidney and get a March 50.
Joe

[cyanchycki]

Thanks Bill for that tid bit of info after I buy Ted's fixed Leupold............

Regardless, the bottom line for me is I pay for my habit with overtime when it is available.  I always said I wanted a frozen scope so I bought one.  Will it change my mind in spending that money, no.  I feel I have a combination that will NOT LET ME DOWN.  This year I hope to do the most shooting 5 matches regardless if the money is there to pay for it all.  I committed myself and will stick to it. 

I do not have the confidence in myself or the trigger time to reinforce that.  When I have that shot go out in left field I wonder why more times than not.  Was it the load, miss condition, poor table manners or scope.  I like to think the scope is out of the equation now.

You have 30+ years of experience shooting against the TOP US shooters.  For me I will be lucky if I will be able to do that a dozen times.  Regardless, I am going to embrace the sport as best I can with my limited abilities.

Calvin

 

[pac11]

Funny this topic should come up today.  I just convinced myself 100% yesterday that my old boosted steel weaver has given up it's horizontal tracking and today at work I was thinking about tearing it apart and trying my hand at freezing it.

  -I shot my best group ever at 200y during load testing and when I moved it down to 100y for this coming weekends match it did the old ....didn't move, didn't move then jump thing.  Vertical seems good but the horizontal....

I was looking online last night figuring where I was going to order a 36 weaver from but since I don't have much to loose in taking this one apart I figure I should give it a try.  If I can repair a diesel injection pump I can probably make the tools to do this thing.

I'd really like to have a scope I can trust.

Mike

[Bill Gammon]

If the horizontal tracking is gone that suggests that you have wore a groove in the inside of the turret. I have never had a Weaver apart, turret wise, but have done my Leups several times. What happens there is a plunger powered by a spring in the turning mechanism, the actual clicking that you feel is the mechanism being turned, adjusting for windage, and that plunger being rubbed inside a turret, which is grooved. I actually wore a groove, because of the plunger, across the grooves. Replaced the turret, problem solved. The one thing that you have to remember is when you use a set on external mounts on a frozen scope you do not get the flexability of an internal adjustment. I would rate Gene Bukys mounts as just about the best but to adjust them takes a little doing and to adjust them half way through a group, not likely going to happen. Want to fix it, go for it. What have you got to lose. Pros, you will learn everything about the scope and how it works and what to look for next time another scope goes bad. Cons, you will "never" learn everything about the scope and how it works and what to look for next time another scope goes bad.
Again, just my opinion. But I truly believe that too many shooters place their screwups on the scope and not were it belongs.

[Tony Gauthier]

Funny this topic should come up today.  I just convinced myself 100% yesterday that my old boosted steel weaver has given up it's horizontal tracking and today at work I was thinking about tearing it apart and trying my hand at freezing it.

  -I shot my best group ever at 200y during load testing and when I moved it down to 100y for this coming weekends match it did the old ....didn't move, didn't move then jump thing.  Vertical seems good but the horizontal....

I was looking online last night figuring where I was going to order a 36 weaver from but since I don't have much to loose in taking this one apart I figure I should give it a try.  If I can repair a diesel injection pump I can probably make the tools to do this thing.

I'd really like to have a scope I can trust.

Mike

I would suggest running the dials all the way up and down and right and left several times before I concluded there is an actual problem with your scope. Odds are the lube has dried up and things got a little sticky. I think you will find that it works fine after that!

[John VM]

All the latest hooplah about scopes has been blown out of proportion and as Bill has said their is more often something else to blame. Having a second known scope that has a known reliability is a plus or a hood scope checker. If you are in doubt of your scope first check your load to see if all is well and make sure nothing has worked its way loose on the rifle or scope. If the temp has changed significantly it may require a little adjusting on the powder measure. The myth of finding a good load and sticking to it is false in my opinion but you rarely have to make major swings when a rifle is in tune. The thing I would first check if things start to go funny and after the load is checked is the firing pin and spring. Springs and firing pins on some actions are real touchy and do not stay good forever, especially on some of the newer actions. All the older rem based actions like the hart and stolle which have the longer firing pin and spring should have a firing pin travel of .25 and about 24 lbs tension and as long as nothing is binding they are hard to beat. The newer actions with a .190 fall and whatever spring tension can be quite unpredictable in performance once the spring gets older.
 I bought a rifle with a short throw and was a proven performer at the previous Super Shoot and yet when I got it a year later and had 3 barrels made up for it it would not shoot anything consitantly for a year and I tried another scope and it didn't help. Got a new firing pin spring and had the firing pin polished up a bit and it started to perform with most of the loads and barrels.
 On my brand new Panda I had issues with it from the start and for two years I struggled in the middle of the pack or worse and almost gave up until Greg Walley felt sorry for me and checked my gun over for me and found that the firing pin fall was only .217. Got the sear replaced and it now has the proper fall and it shoots very competively instead of an occasional small group and a bunch of .3s If you freeze a scope it does not guarantee anything other than the retcle tube should be glued but the reticle ,lens etc can still go bad.

[Tony Gauthier]

Bill is right about freezing scopes. If a Leupold is having an issue with POI it is likely a loose lens assembly. Freezing it only gaurantees that there is no guarantee!  A scope is a hollow tube with a system sitting on a spring and moved with 2 threaded screws. Those "screws" are your adjusters. If you picture a screw held in place with a nut welded to a unmovable piece and the end of the screw against a movable piece, when turning the screw into (clockwise) the nut the movable piece has to move. When turning the screw away from the moveable piece the spring should hold the moveable piece against the screw. If it doesn't it is likely that the lube on the moveable piece is not slippery any more. A heavier spring will move it longer after it gets sticky, but adds a lot of stress to the screw. They all require some internal clearance to enable the system to move. some have more clearance than others, that is why some scopes have more adjustment than others. The more adjustment they have the more clearance they have. The more clearance they have internally the more chance of movement when the recoil hits it.
Now all you have to do is determine which models have the most clearance. I will give you a hint - the cheaper the scope the less workmanship put into close fitting parts. A lot of the lower price scopes in bench rest are what got frozen scopes started. They had frozen scopes back in the 70's ( I am starting to sound like Paul Ross!) and when internally adjusted scopes came along it was a vast improvement in accuracy. Now scopes are being frozen and it is also supposed to be a vast improvement in accuracy?
All I can tell you is there is no warranty on a frozen, or converted Leupold scope. I can't afford to buy scopes that had a life time warranty and now don't because someone tampered with it!

[cyanchycki]

What you guys are saying about scopes may be true but until I see if for myself I have decided to take the jump into the frozen scope world.  If it gives me the mental confidence that is what matters.  Opinions are many.  No different than with optics.  If I knew the inns and outs of optics I would probably not worry about it but it is not my take.  I have choosen to take my chances on a froze scope just as those who take there chances on a 2500.00 March which warranty is only good for the original purchaser and 5 years at that.

We buy Dodge, Chevy and of course the BEST, Ford's, but we will all not agree.  We have Gaillard, McClennan 6mm barrels in Canada and still we choose to buy Krieger and Barlien.  Opel and Mitchell bullets and we buy Bart's or Hottenstein.

Choices are endless in this game.

If I end up failing I failed on my own.

Just the opinion of a man who may have been stung a few to many times by wasps.......

[Bill Gammon]

I just sent Rick 3 pictures to post in this note.
#1 this was the inside of one of the turrets on a 36X Leup. If you look closely you can see the groove I wore across the serated edges on the inside.
#2 This is a picture of Jim's rifle with the AJ designed mounts.
#3 This is a picture of Gene Buky's designed mounts.

[Joe Mendham]

  Still wouldn't mind trying one . Has anyone here actually used one. or should I wait for Calvin to mount his new one and report then.

[Bill Gammon]

Update
AJ Jim Foster mounts are only for the 1" tubes, not the 30mm. But Gene's mount will do both, with the proper rings of course.

[suitty]

i will bet money that george and vera carters scopes have not been frozen, billy stevens or bart either.  we have to remember that it wasn't the arrow but the indian.

[cyanchycki]

Suitty whether or not others believe in frozen scopes I will not change my mind anytime soon.  If it gives me the confidence that it is holding 100% true it is worth it.  I will definately get another in some point in time to put on my new rifle.

George and Vera may not ahve frozen scopes but it sures looks like Vera in the March scope users photo from the SS.  The ONLY manufactured scope with a 5 YEAR WARRANTY to GUARAN DAMN TEE that it will hold POA.  It still has moving internal parts and is PRICEY in comparison to a frozen Leupy.

We all have our opinions and that is mine..........

Calvin

[Rick Graham]

I always used Weavers and was very happy with them, but had one start to go bad on me after several years. So I had it frozen and used the Buckys mount with it for a while. It seemed to hold poi very well, no problem there, and that is the main thing. But, it was a pain in the butt to adjust and get it to where I wanted it to be exactly. It finally got to be more than I liked to deal with so I sold it (and a rifle ) and bought a used March. So far it has been a good scope. (of course the Weavers always seemed to be good scopes too)