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Author Topic: WBC Qualifying  (Read 17387 times)
RobS
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« on: October 27, 2013, 12:45:24 PM »

Below is the copied motion for the selection of individuals for WBC competition.

I understand that this would only be used when the space for competitors is less than the number interested. My question is this. Is there still a limit on the number of competitors one country can have? If not it looks like one country could flood the WBC with say 50 or 100 applicants that may have been able to shoot Grand aggs , in the USA for instance with 100-200 enterants , finish mid pac and have say 300 points and apply to the WBC for a postion. Would this person be competing against another individual from a country where BR is less popular and shoot aggs against 10 to 20 shooters win very agg and end up with a max of 120 points?
I suppose that the WBC is trying to qualify the highest quality of shooter but I can see the potential for some problems. Do the member countries that participate in the WBC have to sanction the individual shooters that apply and if so is it not up the that country to field its best competitors?
I am sure the motion is incomplete in the explanation and the Canadian shooters who attended the meeting can fill in the blanks.

Rob

lMotion to revise WBC Qualifying - Oct. 20, 2013
lln .egards to individual qualifying for WBC events, should there be more candidates than WBC allocated
team positions; the committee recommendsthat a formalqualifyinB pro8ram be implemented.
ilhis qualifying program will consist ofcandidates accumulating points by attending Benchrest group
matches in the qualifving vear, which is the year prior to the WBC events, Candidates will be ranked by
ftheir accumulated points, with the final team selection conducted in accordance to this ranking. Those
runable
to attend the WBC event will be replaced by the next highest ranking candidates.
I
fualifyinc
Procram:
I . Competitors may selecttheir best 5 Grand AgSre8etes ofthe year.
. All matches are eligible, with a special note thatfor the Kelbly Super Shoot, only finishinB places
l throu8h 125 in the Grand A8gregates are eligible for points.
LV, HV, Sporter Grand Agg.egates are eligible.
1 point is awarded for each competitor the candidate places above in the Grand Aggregate,
It is the responsibility ofeach candidate to submittheir official match results tothe WBC
delegate for inclusion in the qualifyinC program,
. A finaltally ofaccumulated points will be made available byyear end ofthe qualifying year.
. Ties between two candidates will be determined bywho had the smallest Grand Aggregate of
the 6 chosen Grand Aggregates, with the smallerGrand Aggregate takingthe higher qualirying
position.








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cyanchycki
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2013, 04:21:12 PM »

Robert, I believe what you have copied and pasted was decided by the 8 man Canadian contingent in Sydney.  This qualifying process is for the Canadian team qualifying only.

I think we need to wait to get full clarification.  I have a few questions in regards to what you posted.

Calvin

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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2013, 04:27:48 PM »

This is for Canada only. We have been advised we can send 12 to St. Louis in 2015.
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RobS
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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2013, 05:20:47 PM »

I thought this was initiated by the WBSF to apply to all countries. I missunderstood. This is a directive by Canada for Canadian shooters. Makes sense to me.   
So any NBRSA, IBS, BRSC etc match or is sanctioning body needed? Can any combination of grand aggs be used or must for example an LV and HV agg from the same match be used.

Rob
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rpollock
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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2013, 05:33:13 PM »

Here is the actual resolution:

WBC Qualifying Resolution

Can be any match including un-sanctioned.

Can be any (6) LV, HV or Sporter Grand Aggs. Can be from same shoot or any combination of shoots.

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cyanchycki
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2013, 06:26:08 PM »

Thanks for the clarification Rick.

So who wants to go to the East/West?  NBRSA Nats?

Robert, the Cactus has been VERY GOOD to you.  I take it that may be your first 2 Grand Aggs............. 
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RobS
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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2013, 03:10:27 PM »

Cal
The system will favor those who shoot at bigger US matches, and maybe it should. I don't know. As interest increases in BR in Canada there will be more competition for WBC positions. That, I feel is a good thing. This ranking system will create a more serious and competitive environment for those interested in competing at the world level. I like it. I hope there will be enough interest in representing our country in world competition that we need to use it.
For me personally it won't change anything. It seems I like to go to shoots where I will likely get my ass handed to me. That's the only way I learn. To see what others are doing right and keep trying.
The only down side is the fact that people unable to travel to big matches may be at a disadvantage when it comes time to add up the points. But no system is perfect. The USA shooters complain about their selection system too. Over all I think its a move in the right direction.

Rob
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cyanchycki
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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2013, 06:48:34 PM »

Robert I agree with everything you have said.  I know there may be the "why are we including non Canadian matches".

The big thing is to send those that are committed to the sport and who are willing to put the time and hard work into the sport.

The program may not be perfect.  Like you said it is a start.

I know I have a few challenges ahead of me at this time but I have decided 2015 is a chance of a lifetime for me.  If that means having to dip into my line of credit to try and make the team it will be worth the effort.  I will not say one day " I should have done this or that".

So I encourage anyone who wants to possibly have the opportunity to represent there country in 2015 in St.Louis, get out there and travel to a few big matches.

I do have a possible suggestion for the future team Canada qualifying but I will address that in person with the members who have travelled to prior world's before I pass that info on.

Calvin
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RobS
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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2013, 08:38:04 PM »

I am happy to see that this kind of rank system is becoming neccesary in this country. It tells me there is increased interest in the sport. We see it prominently in Alberta due to the efforts of Rick and others and I am happy to see more competition as it will raise the bar for everyone. I hope that what ever system used would be seen as fair to all but nothing is perfect. Most important in my mind is the ability to put forward our best and most competitive teams not just the members  that can affort it. 2015 will most likely see a peak in interest due to the location and this motion is timely.


Rob
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G + V Carter
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« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2013, 10:21:03 AM »

Couldnít help but respond to this thread.  Competing for Canada in the Worlds isnít about ďthe ability to put forward our best and most competitive teams not just the members that can afford itĒ.  Having competed in the last five WBC events on four continents, finishing 1st in 100 yards at France and 10th and 13th in 2-guns at France and Austria respectively, I understand both sides of this story.  Canadian team members who have travelled to WBC events have also shown that there were no free rides taken, with two WBC world records set by Canadians, team and individual members who proudly stood on the podium with medals while the Canadian national anthem was played, and others who have achieved difficult top ten finishes in WBC 2-guns.  I wonít mention names but if you donít know who these folks are I suggest you take a closer look at what weíve accomplished for Canada. 

Yes I want us to put forward the best competitive teams, and I think the ranking scheme we decided in Australia will serve that purpose.  But please donít disrespect those of us who represented Canada and worked to secure sponsorships and sacrificed our own funds to get us to this stage where there are more raised hands than team positions available. 

None of us are rich, like our team members who paid to compete in the U.S., Austria, South Africa, France and Australia, we just made a choice to represent Canada when few wanted to step up to the plate to make similar sacrifices.  You have to travel to big shoots to qualify, thatís what WBC events are about.  Youíll need to dip into your line of credit and if that isnít an option, youíll have to make hard choices.  This year we chose WBC 2013 over buying a new used truck and completing some much needed home repairs.  For WBC events we have endured cumulative days of airport delays, months securing firearms permits, and days recovering lost luggage (i.e., that missing gun case containing a Bat action, Scoville stock, March scope and two bolts). 

There is something very special about watching the wind flags from the other side of the world, with the Canadian flag on your back and knowing the world is watching you.  But it isnít easy. 

Driving to St. Louis is easy by comparison.  For those who take the opportunity to compete in WBC13 in 2015, I trust you will remain engaged to make your own sacrifices and raise additional funds to send three committed and competitive Canadian teams to WBC14 in New Zealand in 2017. 

Vera
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cyanchycki
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« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2013, 05:14:51 PM »

Well I am not gonna hold back any punches.  I will be the first to admit that I will and am going to be a Bench Rest hypocrite.

Like I said I am putting all my eggs in one basket for 2015.  It is the ONLY AFFORDABLE opportunity for many of us to try and compete for Team Canada. 

This whole team Canada thing has been a fiasco ever since Canada has been involved.  I am fielding questions about who can make the decisions that are made in regards to selecting a team.

Heck I think I will try and start Team Poland........

Regardless it is what it is. 

No one is forgetting what team Canada members have done in the past.  The past is the past and today is today.  Let's just move forward and select the best shooters possible.

I would like to personally see one spot awarded to a Canadian shooter regardless of traveling to major shoots awarded a position.  It would be a shame to have a shooter who only shot in Canada who out aggs anyone else and cannot be on the team.

JMO

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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2013, 08:10:22 AM »

Work goes into the worlds by people committed to the team(s) even when they are not going to the event! I personally didn't realize how much effort goes into making this happen until having gone through it. Many thanks to Dave & Bill in this regard.

With so much interest for the upcoming worlds in St. Louis, the qualifying process changes are going to prove out a good thing. I hope the interest carries through to 2017 in New Zealand.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 08:49:24 AM by BobR » Logged
rpollock
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2013, 08:13:46 AM »

Obviously WBC qualifying is a hot button for many. Keep it civil and on topic.
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Pesky ab
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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2013, 03:04:08 PM »

A big thanks goes out to those who have done all the work  and sacrifice to attend the previous worlds , I had a great time and really appreciate being able to stand on the shoulders of those who went before , I never thought it was a fiasco at all ,quite the contrary all the veterans helped us newbies feel right at home . it was great to meet George , Vera and Andy, looking forward to seeing them at the big shoots around the country this year,
as for the revised system of qualifying,  it was big of the WBC competitors from previous Worlds to step up and back the points system and for go any points for their previous input and commitment ,very classy.
I think we now have about as level a playing field as could be had given the circumstances.
we are all looking for the same thing in the end , to  travel around ,compete and try to finish high enough to qualify for the world team in ST Louis in 2015,if all goes well we should be able to field the best teams possible.
I suspect that this may only be a problem for the US worlds , but really it is a nice problem to have and hopefully by the time the new Zealand worlds come around
we will have even more competitors vying for spots on the teams to go there.
 thanks to the efforts of Rick P and other shooters/coaches out here, Bench rest is growing in the west so hopefully we can keep the momentum going and continue to add more competitors all across the country.
Hugh
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John VM
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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2013, 07:08:14 PM »

"This whole team Canada thing has been a fiasco ever since Canada has been involved.  I am fielding questions about who can make the decisions that are made in regards to selecting a team."
 I would like to see the above quote explained. What fiasco are we talking about? Getting a  Canadian team started was largely due to one person in the beginning and it was a chore to get enough people interested in going, let alone organize a team and register the Canadian team with WBSF. It was through his efforts, that this all got started. He was always glad to hand over the reigns to anyone interested in doing the thankless job it is. Now through the work of others who have taken up the cause it has continued to grow in interest. I fail to see a Fiasco. Now as things grow and hopefully keep growing obviously things will change and procedures will need to be set in how we address the changes so that we do this in the best interest of promoting the sport nationally and as a nation within the international community.
 Someone can correct me if I am wrong on this but to the best of my knowledge, the members who signed up and paid their memberships to the World team are the ones who are in the position to make the rules.
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cyanchycki
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2013, 08:04:17 PM »

I see the word's I have used have ruffled a few feathers.  Do I have facts to back what I said?  No.  Should I have said what I did?  No.  I am just basing what I said from what I have heard from people. 

I will call it the way I see it right now.

There is a rift between the East and West.  The West is working at seeing the sport of Bench Rest grow in Canada.  I am talking right now, today. 

Is there any growth in the East? 

How many shoots are held in Ontario/Quebec?  What I see on the internet by the results is Canadian shooters spending more time in the US supporting them.  This is prevalent in Eastern Canada.

I will get to the Initial start of this thread qualifying for Team Canada.  I like my Western brothers and sisters that I shoot with.  Many of them have shot for team Canada this past world's and previous World's.  I understand the decisions that were made this past World's to have a fair process in place to qualify for Team Canada.  Let us all be realistic, the ONLY time this will be an issue is when the World's are in North America.  Let's hope I am wrong but that is fact.  I know many shooters who are Team Canada capable but are not in the financial position.  Yes unfortunately we live in a Country where being a firearm owner is almost like committing a Mortal sin.

We have to be realistic and know that there will be many people who hardly shoot matches that may want to go and shoot for Team Canada in St. Louis in 2015.  Before you know it there is a FLOOD of people stepping up to the plate.  So there needed to be something put in place.  A process was put in place this year.  It is what it is.

Now I agree and disagree with the process.  I agree that we should be sending the best shooters possible if there is more than the allotted amount wanting to go.  I agree and disagree with the process that has been implemented.  There is talk about commitment to team Canada and the program outside of when the World's are held in North America. 

Well if there is mention of committment why is it so difficult to have a sole Team Canada qualifying match in Canada?  If one is committed to being a part of team Canada and represent there country they would commit to this match.  What does the Super Shoot, NBRSA Nationals, Cactus, etc.... any of the major US matches have to do with Team Canada?  Nothing.  Do you see the US using a Canadian shoot?  No.  Well I guess because we do not really have any shoots that would attract them.  Why do we not have more matches in Canada?  Because we are hell bent on supporting matches across in the US and NOT trying to grow the sport all across this country.  I know there is growth in the West but what about the East?  Is anyone doing anything to grow the sport in Eastern Canada?

I am just tossing this out there.

I am going to ruffle more feathers but this is my thought on this subject.

My western brothers, Rick, Hugh, Dan, Robert, I think you know where I stand on this matter.  I am with the process that is in place to qualify but I still would like to see Team Canada selected from Canadian ONLY shoots.  There are a LOT more people I know who have done a lot for this game in Western Canada who feel the same way.  I am just voicing for those people.  I will take the heat.  I like hearing "Yanchycki. Oh that A-hole" 

I believe it is possible if the few that have posted mentioning past performance, or committment to the program outside of the US are willing to committ to being open to Team Canada qualifying being done in our own wonderful country.

Like I said there is a rift between East and West just like there is/was between the North and South in the US.

I am a NOBODY in this sport in Comparison to a lot of Canadian shooters of the past or even today.  I hold no records.  I have won 4-2 guns in my short career. 2 this past year in The BRSC Nationals and the MB Provincials.  If memory serves me right I have won 4 of the last 7 shoots I have competed in.  I dare challenge anyone who believes they think about this sport more than I do today.........

You either love me or hate me when I tell it the way I see it.

This is JMO.

Calvin

 

 
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G + V Carter
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« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2013, 09:50:04 PM »

You have valid questions, some we foresaw years ago, and some concerns were not on our radar screen.  In Australia we discussed the need to have the qualifications proposal reviewed by all stakeholders.  So this discussion is right on the mark.  Iíll attempt to answer your questions in as personal a way as I can. 

Apparently many of us in the East are unaware of a rift between East and West, at least the topic doesnít come up at our shoots.  I knew there would be a healthy East/West rivalry come out of this; however we compete against many friends but that doesnít ever come between our friendship. 

Frankly until very recently we were unaware of the great job that Rick has been doing to increase memberships in the West.  We could definitely learn from this, we have steadily lost almost all our local ranges in the East due to increasingly rigid range restrictions.  Concerns over declining memberships is an ongoing discussion at our matches.  The subject of a different thread, I suspect itís as much an urban issue as any. 

In previous worlds weíve had representation between East and West evenly distributed through our teams.  I canít speak for 1996 but Bill made this a priority in 2005, mixing our folks together perhaps to quieten any perceived issues.  In 2007 John VM and Lawrence W selected the teams as they were not eligible for participation due to their residence, I facilitated the process but their decision was final.  In other years the teams fell together subjectively based on how folks were shooting leading up to picking the teams. 

Weíre all patriotic.  Flag waving on the overpass when our fallen soldiers come home from Afghanistan patriotic.  Bring the Canadian flag around the world patriotic.  I love your passion for our country, letís just say weíre all patriotic. 

In Austria we foresaw the day when sponsorships would be available enough to pay for a competitorís fare to travel to far off shoots, and we would need a form of choosing teams when the flood gates opened.  We didnít think this would take the form of St. Louis, but it has the same result.  Then we chose the qualification that past supporters of WBC shoots, either working behind the scenes, raising sponsorships, or paying money to travel, would be the deciding factor.  This year we agreed to leave this criteria behind in favour of a method that allowed the same chances for anyone, regardless of their past participation or lack thereof. 

Why do we shoot then in the U.S. in addition to our Canadian matches?  Because we love the sport.  Hall of Fame is on both our bucket lists, easier said than done, I shot a .1600 agg at the Nationals in Weikert and got second place, missed my first point by that much.  Wish we had more time to gain points for the Eastern Region Shooter of the Year (NBRSA Eastern Region includes Ontario and Quebec).  Winning the SuperShoot is on my bucket list, I got my top 20 patch but want more. 

Why canít we just shoot one match in Canada to decide the worlds team?  We decided to let everyone pick their own aggs so the Western guys didnít have to fly/drive to the Eastern shoots and vice versa.  We donít want to make the long trip to Rosebud any more than the Western folks want to travel to Elmira for the equivalent of a week-end match.  Itís as simple as that. 

We thought about using smallest aggregate, but this varies from range to range and with time.  Didnít seem fair.  Although we settled on using it for a tie-breaker. 

Also we are using six aggregates of the shooterís choice, rather than one shoot, because sometimes a gun malfunction or error at a single match can take you out.  That isnít fair.  I think we have improved on the U.S. qualification process in this method, they are required to travel to five pre-selected matches and if they miss one and have a malfunction in another they are eliminated from the worlds, period. 

Lastly, why not just compare our results from the Canadian shoots, after all, the best of the East shoot at Elmira, and the best of the West shoot at the BRSC Nationals.  Fact is, unfortunately, that these are small shoots.  Prior to long gun registration these shoots attracted large numbers of U.S. shooters, increasing the size of the shoots.  This raises the match pressure.  I think youíll agree that the large matches are different than our local shoots where we compete against our local friends.  The worlds are about competing against the world at a large match.  To see whether someone is capable of finishing a large shoot they need to shoot at a large match.  So the big shoots get more weighting than the small ones, for a very practical reason.  Thereís no favouratism over the U.S. shoots here, its about size of the shoots.  Western folks can travel to big shoots in the U.S. Western States, and Eastern folks can travel to big shoots in the U.S. Eastern States, and we will compare the results.  But the small shoots just donít add the match pressure needed to demonstrate whether somebody can perform at the worlds. 

Hope this helps explain. 

Vera
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« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2013, 05:52:16 AM »

Thanks Vera. Great to have your first hand account here.
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DaveHolmes (Homer)
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« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2013, 05:04:49 PM »

Well said Vera.  Thanks for all the hard work you and the team has done.

As recent as October's Elmira  we had a  US shooter--Bill B.    Border issues have probably discouraged U.S. shooters from coming across.  Bill had problems coming north and then had problems getting back across their border.

The country is ten provinces plus territories---not East and West.

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« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2013, 05:57:29 PM »

  Calvin, I don't think you are an "a-hole" or anywhere near that. I do think a good discussion should be had on this issue and we should be able to discuss the issues without unnecessary eye poking in general.  I love the idea of a completely Canadian qualification match (Now I will show you the issue), it should be held in Alberta!or if you are in the east, Elmira! I have to agree with Vera, I have never felt or heard animosity of the westerners except maybe when Opal beat me by .010" for small group at the Super Shoot. But I got over that, eh. The issue is distance and time and face it, if the match was held in Alberta or Elmira, would you get 40 shooters total. If this was the only real qualifying match, one gun break down or lost firearm on the plane sure could ruin someones outlook of competing. This would be considered a local match in the US, but would have the time and expense of a major shoot in the US. It is more economics than anything else. Right now the west is growing but its economy is doing well also. It was not like this when Ontario was booming. Years ago I can remember going to 12 shoots a year without leaving the province but the economy was doing well and the government was not imposing ridiculous restrictions on ranges near populations. Now several have given up as the restrictions were to costly for rifle ranges to meet. Times are tough even on the American side in traditional areas of benchrest. It has been tough on all shooting sports in a lot of areas if you look around.
 I did enjoy going to the World shoot in 2005 and if you get the opportunity to go, then go out and try your best to qualify. It is an experience you will enjoy and remember all your life. How my wife put up with me for those 2 years, I do not know, but she did.
 I would again have to agree with Vera, the world teams have always been pretty close to even as far as westerners and easterners and I believe this has been a good thing, it has given us opportunity to meet each other and work together for a greater goal. When I came back from the World shoot I sure had an appreciation for all involved and felt I had gained several new friends, in western Canada, Namibia, South Africa, France, England, New Zealand... well I can't name them all.
 Let's discuss how we can make the most of these opportunities by raising money and supporting the world team so that those who do have the ability to go and are successfully competing, can go even if it may be in Australia, South Africa or New Zealand, not just a rush to the closer matches because it is the only time that I can afford.(I am not trying to single out Calvin, most of us are not in a position to to do this on our own) We should be all striving to put our best shooters forward.
 After writing all this I think Vera is doing a pretty good job of speaking on this and I am just rambling.
 To all the team members, welcome back, thanks for doing your best in representing Canada. Now go get some sleep before the jet lag catches you. Smiley
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