Benchrest in Canada
BR Discussions => Centerfire Discussions => Topic started by: hendershot on February 06, 2013, 07:47:40 PM
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Hey guys. What are your thoughts on fire forming using a wax plug and pistol powder? The theory is good but how does it work in practice?
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lots of theories Dan, I found it easiest just to use an old barrel, unless your trying to save bullets?
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When I got my first benchrest gun last year I didn't like the idea of fireforming in a brand new barrel. I tried some of the "new" version of Norma 6ppc brass. I've reloaded it four or five times now and it still looks and shoots good. I've been shooting all winter so far and have never had any problems with it. :)
Ray
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I used ~10grains of Bullseye mixed with cornmeal and wax over the neck opening - which worked ok. I think it took a 3rd firing for the cases to be 100% expanded.
Now that I have a shot out barrel I'm planning to fire 22 cal bullets on the first firing (into a bank of dirt, up close...).
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I expand, trim, chamfer the inside, deburr the flashholes, turn, fill to the bottom of the neck shoulder junction with what is left of lots of 133, seat a fireforming bullet (seated long) and fireform the new brass as foulers. I use my bolt grease on the outside of the case as well before firing. Just a very LIGHT coat.
I have not got into the fireforming before neck turning.
But as mentioned there are so MANY ways to accomplish this.
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I have been doing it the same as Cal,only thing I would add is that now we run them through the sizing die first,also if you can exand and cut one at a time rather than expand a bunch and then turn, some times they can relax a bit while your waiting to turn them and you may get some small variances in neck thickness. hope that helps
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I forget to mention as the Pesky one said above........... LOL......... Pesky one................. Pesky one is a GOOD GUY........
After turning I degrease from turning then I run the case through my Harrell's die before loading. With my reamer that is used to cut chambers the shoulder has to be bumped back or it is just to HARD to close the bolt. As a matter of fact I should order a few more reamers to have on hand. The fit between the chamber and my Harrells is perfect. Hope Kiff can duplicate it??????
The other thing is I DO NOT hammer through getting the cases done in one sitting. I may turn a few then pay attention to the Teleeeeeeeeeee while sucking on a glass. Then do a few more............ Do not want to get that cutter warm. Slow and steady wins the race.
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I'm going to to try what Bobr is thinking of. I got plenty of .22 pills to fireform with.
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Many years ago I fire formed 243 W to 243 AI.
10 gn. Bullseye plugged with beeswax.
When my wife wasn't home went to the fruit cellar with the cocrete cealing pointed the rifle up loaded a case touched her off never lost a case.
Did not blow up the house ether.
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Hey,
so, in getting some brass I bought from Lester Bruno ready for the upcoming season. It was already neck turned down to 8.5 thou thickness but not fired. I measure the shoulder at the base of the neck compared to brass I shot last year and the unfired 220 Russian brass has a shoulder that is ~10 thou longer!!! Does that make sense??
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Yes,
It makes sense. You want the parrent cartridge (220 Russian) to produce light resistance when closing the bolt. This allows the case to fully expand at the upper portion of the case upon the first fireing. I realize that this sounds counter-intuative but that is how it works. You want a light "crush fit" of the cartridge case on the first fireing. This method will provide a fully expanded case if the load produces sufficent pressure to fully expand the case.
LE Hanson
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BobR, before you load up that new brass try it in your chamber to be sure you can close the bolt. Sometime you must run it through your sizing die to push the shoulder back a bit in order for it to be usable in your chamber. As LE said it is good to have a slight crush fit for fireforming, so don't push the shoulder back too far.
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thnx, will do
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Used a little oil on the cases and "wow" did it make a difference in how well the shoulders were formed after 1 firing.
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I never remember to do that! :-[
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I'm no expert, but here is how I do fire-forming without using a gun.
I set up a sizing die in a press in my shop remove the de-priming, neck sizing rod from the die.
I prime all the cases I want to do with spent primers.
Cut a piece of tin small enough to put inside the shell holder to cover the hole (I have placed a small screw in to fill the hole) to hold the primer in the case.
Fill the cases to the base of the neck with water.
Put in press and push hand to the full sizing position.
Now the cartridge is in the new sizing die.
Then slide a brass punch, which I (turn/have turned) to be .001 smaller then the inside of the case mouth to the water.
Then one hit with a dead blow hammer and vi-la sized beautifully ... after a few youll know how hard to hit, its not overly hard.
Remove, pour out water, de-prime and dry.
I call this hydraulic forming and once case are primed and filled with water you can do about 100 an hour and not a lot of water comes out when you hit the punch if the fit is somewhat tight.
Just how I do it...
Tom
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That's pretty interesting/cool - what diameter are the necks (i.e. do they even change) since the water is in the case body at the start?
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Bob:
I read an article on the accurateshooter site that explained the process using the Hornady die system. I've never tried them but Hornady makes die sets for this type of case forming. Apparently they will even custom make a set of dies if the customer sends in a couple of spent cases fired through the gun. I came across this system while searching for an alternate to fire forming cases in a new bench gun.
Ray
Disclaimer: I have no financial interest in Hornady other than buying their products.
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I read the same article about the Hornady Hydroform dies. It was intriguing. I sent an email to Hornady for more details but haven't heard back yet. I'd like to try it.
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If its for a new barrel Dan ,measure your neck diameter in the chamber, cut your brass to the neck thickness that you like ,Load the brass to be fire formed with your powder and bullets, usually you will only get around 28.2 of 133 in them, seat some bullets and shoot them,if the lot of brass is good and you have a really good sizing die your brass problems will go away,it will also break in the barrel as well(if it needs it).its quick and easy.most are doing around 20 cases, there are some different theories on how long you run the brass, this again depends largley on your sizing die/chamber fit.weather is getting nice so we should all start getting out to practice
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Hydraulic sizing
Many years ago I wanted a AI gun built and was told by the G-smith to bring him a couple of loaded cartridges before he chambered the gun for me.
I was a bit confused and asked him how could I have a cartridge before I had the gun to fire-form the brass in!
He said in time Id have a better grasp on doing things with guns but due to my age he would explain how and why to do forming without a gun.
The following was his system and reasoning.
He claimed any good gun smith, worth his salt, would want a re-sized and loaded cartridge made from the dies the gun owner would use in the future
due to the fact no two dies were ex-actually the same. So he could chamber it to fit the cartridge being used in future
He said, buy the brass your going to use and follow the instructions in my previous post.
Now to address a couple of questions Ive gotten;
I now use a guide that fits over the die to ensure the plunger is in perfect alignment with the mouth of the neck (but it will work without)
And when making/fitting the plunger depending on what brass your using it has to be fitted as tight as possible inside the neck (this is brass manufacture specific).. remember to use a dead blow hammer
some of the new brass will take 2 or 3 hits to fully form to the die.
This happened to me about 45 years ago and the mans name was Shurla Burrie from Edmonton. (a great smith, friend, and mentor)
God rest his sole.
Happy to share
tom
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i forgot the light oiling on the case, it is a very good idea,
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I'm hoping I won't have my brass issues anymore and I don't expect to. I ordered and received my reamer and have chambered two new barrels and my old barrel for fire forming. I'm happy with my current method of fire forming but was curious to hear others' opinions. I like the idea of the hydro form dies because it saves a lot of time and money. Does it work as advertised? There is only one way to find out.
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if its for your bag gun Dan, you can fire form the brass in the barrel you put on the gun ,word is the new barrels need 50-70 rounds to settle down anyway,fire form ,load a grid and your good to go.
you might want to get a sizing reamer that matchs your finish reamer from Kiff,buy a die blank and make a sizing die,a little bit of expense but well worth it.if the sizing die's you have are the ones you had in Phoenix at the nationals they may not be optimum.if you Look in Boyers or Ratigans book they explain how to tell if the sizeing die is good ........or scrap.
Hope that helps.
See you at the range