Benchrest In Canada Forum

BR News => WBSF - World Benchrest Shooting Federation Events => Topic started by: John VM on October 01, 2015, 06:25:30 PM

Title: Team shoots
Post by: John VM on October 01, 2015, 06:25:30 PM
 In light of the discussion on BR central about the World Shoot, I would like to carry this over to a hopefully positive discussion on this sight.
 What can we do to better prepare for a Team orientated shoot like the World Shoot?
 Can we shoot more shoots with teams involved? Can we come up with a detailed plan to study, if we make it on to the team, that lays out how to best support each other. The American teams are not the only ones who have been bit by teams falling apart. It is almost inevitable that some one will have a blooper, mistake, powder in the action or chamber, so focused they shot their group on the sighter moment. Do we start hucking gravel at team members if they are on the wrong target. Do we even watch for team members struggling and needing a back up rifle?
 The team format does change how things are done, you can win or lose by one shot from any of the team members, you all go down when it goes wrong.
 In light of the time and expense involved in qualifying and competing at the world level, shouldn't this be discussed? We do have quite a few shooters who have competed at a World Shoot looking at the amount of competitors we have in Canada. Some have been fortunate and hard working enough to be able to attend several and some a few but the experience should allow for some great ideas.
Title: Re: Team shoots
Post by: Pesky ab on October 01, 2015, 07:41:21 PM
Distance is a big problem, no way for the guys in the west to practice with the guys in the east as a team and develop a strategy.
 there are many ways to prepare as team , biggest hurdle is distance followed by no real team SOP , we are making great improvements but could do better ,the Aussies have a good system looking from the outside , not sure how to fix the distance part.
Title: Re: Team shoots
Post by: John VM on October 03, 2015, 10:12:27 AM
 Distance is a problem but it is for the aussies to. They have an East and West thing happening also, but if I recall right many showed up at the east west shoot and at the nationals in Holton last year. At that time we could have picked teams and tried to beat each other to simulate how it would work at the worlds. Even if we cannot always get together as the official team before the world shoot we can get together with former team members and people who are wanting to contend and work on a team at any shoot large enough to gain some experience. It may not be perfect but it will give everyone an experience in shooting as a team instead of doing it the first day of the world shoot.
 The other thing I brought up would be a booklet that we can add or change as we go but it would outline how we should approach the world shoot so that everyone is on the same program. Things like how the shoot works using teams and having spotters behind the line with their rifle ready with a few spare rounds in case a team member runs into problems. We all have had experiences that we can relate to and possible ways of figuring this out to minimize damage. Can we share or have a designated spare rifle if someones breaks down should be discussed before hand and not with a minute to go before seize fire.
Title: Re: Team shoots
Post by: rpollock on October 03, 2015, 11:34:53 AM
John, some of things you talk about like a spare rifle at the line, was done this year and previous years. I agree more can be done. However we had a team member this year refuse to wear the team shirt. Go figure, he took the place of other people who would have been thrilled to wear the team shirt, not only that but took the sponsors money for shirts and bought a single shirt then didn't wear it. You are right, in the future we will need a handbook for how to be a team player, but nobody saw that coming from a grown man.
Title: Re: Team shoots
Post by: John VM on October 04, 2015, 11:57:55 AM
 That is disappointing news. I would have liked to wear the shirt even if I didn't get to go.
 I was glad to see the Canadian teams do as well as they did overall. I am glad that they have implemented a spare rifle at the matches I am just hoping we can take all of our experiences and put them together to prepare every team that goes, to be the best they can be without little disasters becoming major disasters. With the time and money involved and with sponsors interests included it might be something to consider if we want the program to grow and succeed.
Title: Re: Team shoots
Post by: IanOwen on November 06, 2015, 10:41:34 PM
One of the things the Aussies do is run state teams at their Nationals, and I think WA has won that several years in a row.

All the Aussie competitors also sign competitor agreements and work very well together for team events.

I think to achieve at WBC all team members have to work together and help each other, everyone now has competitive equipment and components so the only thing that is going to set the difference now is how the competitors work as a team.
Title: Re: Team shoots
Post by: Bertde on November 07, 2015, 05:21:34 AM
HI Everyone;
The only team shooting I've ever done is Fullbore/Long Range prone where one of the team is the wind coach, another plots the shots and the third is the shooter whose responsibility is to get a clean shot off with no verticals.
Can someone explain how BR shooters shoot as a team and what the various responsibilities are?
Title: Re: Team shoots
Post by: John VM on November 07, 2015, 07:15:21 PM
 Bert, that would be the question. As a rule BR is usually an individual competing against others type of sport. At the world shoot, emphasis is on the countries being represented by teams which is kind of a foreign concept for this game.
 The problem is most people do not know how a team works in this game because we have never done it (unless they have been to a World shoot before).
 I think to work as a team we would have to consider sharing wind conditions that work, sharing of rifles if one has a rifle that has quit shooting, one of the team members having a rifle and ammo ready behind the line in case of problems, a reminder to check the bore and competitor # before stepping up to the line. Quite often when you travel to a foreign country, you have to buy your primers and powder on the location so little time is available to get comfortable with developing a load and becoming familiar with it in a new climate. Much info could be shared in this time instead of everyone trying to figure it out on their own. I know that every rifle has peculiarities of there own but the conditions will change the same for everyone.
 We also have to realize that someone is going to struggle and pull the team down as we all have good days and bad days, but if we look out for each other the damage can be minimized. It also helps to smile and lighten up a little at times as while the pressure to do well representing your fellow shooters from your country can build up, we do better when we enjoy it a little also. This list is just the things that have struck me as things that could be done, and I realize some already do use some of these ideas, but to have a handout for the first time shooters so that they know what to expect and be prepared for this when they get there. As Ian stated, even if all our equipment is capable, those who are working as a team are winning. It might not always be possible to shoot with the team you will be shooting with but to just practice shooting as a team with other competitors helps at big shoots like the nationals.
 At no point am I insinuating or implying that we have done a terrible job or trying to isolate anyone else but just reflecting on my experience with the one time I was privileged to go. It was definitely an experience I will never forget, but one I was not totally prepared for.
 I would like to thank Ian for his input, I met him in 2005 and have followed his progress over the years and he has been a great example of the finest of this sport and of New Zealand.
Title: Re: Team shoots
Post by: Bertde on November 09, 2015, 07:00:47 AM
Thanks John;
It sounds like this would work best if shooters had some training and practice sessions where the "worst possibles" could be addressed and the members of the team could "gel" as a working unit of like minded people who trust each other. I'm not suggesting the opposite - just seems to me to be a necessary condition of team shooting that would need to be worked on before venturing out as a team. This also assumes that all members are technically proficient - of course you wouldn't go to the worlds if you aren't.
In New Brunswick we regularly hold team shoots (in Fullbore/long range shooting) and I know it takes us several times together with with a coach/trainer before we can function as a supportive unit. There a just a lot of kinks to work out. One of them is that we are individuals who shoot and develop our loads and technique individually and we have to learn to be comfortable with letting go of some of the control over what we usually do ourselves and trust a wind coach to do it for us. A little different from BR shooting. But still - the trust factor would be there.
It's too bad we live in such a big country where it is really difficult to get together easily. I know from travelling to matches in the Maritimes that the costs in time and $$ really add up. This on top of equipment and component costs.
Title: Re: Team shoots
Post by: IanOwen on November 13, 2015, 04:36:32 PM
First John you have just outlined some of the major points of working as a team. Spotting for each other is another part of team play and is very helpful to sometimes understand why the bullet went where it did.
Also thanks for those kind words John, I do remember meeting you in 2005 at Kelbly's it has been a long time, hopefully we will meet again when Canada hosts WBC, if not before.

Bert you are so right that team members need to learn to trust each other and also learn to let go of some of the control or should that be share some of the control. Most don't want to admit when they are having trouble or can't figure things out, and you can't really function as a team if you can't.

What Rick points out about the team member not wanting to wear the Team T shirt may appear trivial but in context it is rather major, by doing what that team member did he basically said "I don't want to be associated with them, I'm not part of that team". How does this affect the other team members, because it certainly will affect them in some way, it also shows they have no country pride.

Team members have to feel included in the team and also be able to put any differences aside when functioning as a team. I have noticed the Aussies don't necessarily put the team members together in the order they qualify, sometimes it's those who will get on with each other in the same teams.......personal personality conflicts, will affect team moral.

As for team competition, do you have any major shoots that most shooters are at? If you do try including team shoots at them, as I said in my previous post Australia have State teams at their Nationals. In the past I have heard how Australia team members had team practice and team meetings prior to even leaving for a WBC, this has obviously paid off for them.