Bill,

One of the overriding issues is the rule book. Anything that meets a definition of truly innovative probably falls outside our rulebook. Plus we are confined by the notion that there are only so many ways to hold a cartridge in a chamber and so many ways to drill and rifle a bar of steel. BR is no longer the refuge of the experimenter, it is dominated by people who don't really feel the urge to experiment all that much. They are too busy wearing barrels out at the top levels. The experimenters still exist, but you don't hear that much about them. I think dimishing returns are at work here. I agree the macro evolution appears stagnant, but the there is still experimentation at the micro evolution level.

As someone who was on a hiatus for about 5 yrs, I see a lot of changes. The equipment has changed or refined. Pretty much the trend is to ejector guns and shooting quick. Actions have been optimized for high pressure cartridges and speed. Barrels are better than ever. Continued refinement in the PPC never seems to stop. We have gone from .262 necks to no-turn necks, and now light turn necks. Almost nobody had coax rests 5rs ago, now it seems like everyone has them. The scope problem continues to be attacked, hopefully without spending $2500. The powder situation has people blending powders, sifting powders, now it looks like we will all be weighing charges at the range or pre-weighing and bringing the charges in vials. Winds flags are becoming quite sophisticated. I am not sure sure a BR rifle from 30 yrs ago, although appearing quite similar to today's rifle, would be all that competitive.

As you point out, the proof is in the pudding. The aggs are something to behold these days, even as compared to 5 yrs ago. In particular at the National level. It is daunting to say the least. Top 20 positions are teen aggs? Wow! Numerous records fell this year in the US, and Gary O'Cock was within 2 bullets of shooting a zero agg this year. Shooting a zero in competion was used to be very special (it still is to me) but to the top ranks it is somewhat routine.

The question as I see it, is where does the evolution go from here? Further refinments on the existing equipment, or will the rule books allow for true innovation? I am pretty sure we are locked in to the situation as it currently exists. This is probably fine with most competitors, since nobody wants to start over with all new equipments that takes most people a few years to acquire. Plus as I have mentioned before, the playing field as it exists today is incredibly level. This leveling of the playing field has improved over the years as the selection and availability of quality components has exploded over the last 10 years. Other than the border issues, there is more to choose from than ever before.

Good topic!

Rick

Nice to hear from you Rick. Best of the Season!

LV 100
LV 200
LV Grand Agg
HV 100
HV 200
HV Grand Agg
2-Gun Grand Agg

For me it was seeing old friends and new faces at the Nationals in Regina, and seeing Joe M, and Lowell B, come to Rosebud for a shoot. Lots of great memories from these two shoots. Looking forward to more in 2010!

Needless to say I have been hooked ever since.

The first hit is free......

I have a great group shot of the 2009 Nationals from Regina and would post if there are no objections.

Calvin

Go for it!

Thanks John. It became apparent the old software wasn't going to cut it. A few hours later and even this luddite can get something going!

 Tony Gauthier said:

The 2010 BRSC nationals will be held at Rosebud range on the August long weekend.The match will start on saturday July 31 and finish up Sunday August 1. Hope to see you all there!

cyanchycki said:

Some of you know a bit about who I am and when I started in Bench Rest. You can find a bit more about me in the Shooter Profile on Benchrest.ca and some of my thoughts.

I would have to call Selkirk Game and Fish Range my home range. It is the only range in Manitoba capable of holding Bench Rest matches. More on the club can be found following the links on Bench Rest.ca.
I have tried to no avail to get something going in Brandon but the OLD BOYS club will just not entertain the fact of making the few improvements at the club. They would rather try and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars for an indoor range which is going to cost thousands of dollars to run every year. I was part of the range committee and decided to resign after my ideas fell upon deaf ears.
From what I gather Bench Rest started in the early 80’s in Selkirk. I have heard of one story from a friend of mine who went at one time to watch a match in the days. He informed me that the match he had attended that it rained so hard guys had cups taped to their scopes and were soaking wet shooting out in the rain with no covered line. I believe shortly after the roof was put over the line.
Matches used to be well attended and even frequented by our US shooters from Minnesota and North Dakota. It appears the aftermath of 911 put a damper on these shooters coming into Canada. As we all know shooters have come and gone over the years.

At Selkirk there still remains a core of 5 shooters who were there from day one or just about day one. In the last few years a few new shooters including myself have discovered Bench Rest and are attending the 2 matches held at Selkirk each year. The matches are small but never the less we are enjoying the competition and comradery of it all. On average there are approx 8-10 shooters at the matches. Shooters double as scorers and target pullers at times to make the matches run.

Selkirk Game and Fish Range is a nice facility but is in need of a little TLC. The table tops which are wood could be replaced with new tops and the roof over the covered line has seen better days. The roof still does its job by keeping the sun and rain off of your back. The firing line faces north with a row of bush for the entire length along the left side of the firing line. Bench one basically is about 10’ off of the tree line at the firing line. The right side is more open until about the 130 yard mark where the tree line creeps in and basically is there for the duration of distance to the backstop. The clubhouse is adjacent the firing line, maybe 30’ feet away and sports a lean to attached to the main building which doubles as a cleaning area during the matches. The clubhouse is a decent size and has running hot/cold water as well as boys/girls washrooms. If you are adventurous there are outhouses for your enjoyment.

As far as range records go I am in the process of trying to get them if there even is a list of them.
In closing I have offered this upcoming year to be the Bench Rest Chair for the club. I love the sport and am far from where I would like to live in regards to this AWESOME sport. I would like to see one more match held at the club maybe in a score shoot and a one day format. It would be nice if it could be something that will maybe bring in a few new shooters to see what it is all about.

Calvin

rpollock said:
Calvin, hats off to you for stepping up to chair the BR at Selkirk. There really is a love of the game at work here. We have such an eclectic sport, but once you are bitten there is no going back...


Joem said:
Calvin I know what you mean about dealing with a club that isn't interested in holding BR shoots. My home club has a strong following for F class so the rifle committee isn't too interested, with this in mind I'm going to try and hold some VFS shoots in the spring. This at a club that has a membership of about 1500 and a area population of approx 2 million, but only has 3 BR shooters, 2 active.
Maybe I can entice some F class and/or varmint shooters to try it. I guess if I could get one shooter to cross over that would be a 25% increase.
I'll let you know how this turns out after we have the shoot.

John VM said:
Yes it is a great sport, and it takes good people to run matches. Thanks Calvin for stepping up when needed and for the report on the club in Manitoba.

John VM said:
Out of curiosity would their be any interest in a true Canadian nationals or Super Shoot? If their is, would it be better in one location centrally located or alternatly East and West?
I am not trying to start anything but I do think it might make for an interesting discussion

rpollock said:
John,
there is interest in a "true" Nationals and a CDN Super Shoot as well. It comes up for discussions quite regularly. Due to the distances involved it seems to lose momentum. I for one would like to see the discussion advanced as well.

Bill Gammon said:
Back in the early years they held a SS out west and in 1978 started the Western, and Eastern Nationals. The Eastern stopped in 1995 or 96 not sure. I still have the Eastern Nationals trophy in my office, which I would like to get rid of. 1978 Bill Gammon, 1979 Harold Reger, 1980 Ed Joiner, 1981 Harry Hoppe, 1982 Jim Fedorowich, 1983 Bob DeMonstoy, 1984 Hendry Dunbar, 1985 Paul Burns, 1986 Paul Johnson, 1987 Dwight Scott, and then it jumps to 1996 Ken Rossing. Not sure why. I am in the process of scanning all of the SORS newsletters, maybe I will find out.

John VM said:
It is to bad some of these shoots did not continue. Personally I started around 1993 or 1994 and don't remember any of these events. The one event I remember was the Can-Am competition which was held for a few years in which one match was in London and the other was in Western Wayne every year. If I remember right, it was last won by the Canadian team and the trophy is some where in London

cyanchycki said:
The biggest issue I see is the distance required to travel be it east or west. How many are actually willing to travel to make it work? The east shooters have great shoots in the US which are within a few hours. Unfortunately the west has just Tacoma and that is not a short trip either. So would it work? Who knows? Centralizing it would be great for me but it still leaves long drives for the east and west shooters. Would east or west shooters drive to say Selkirk every other year if it was held in Selkirk?

I hear quite often you have not shot BR unless you have shot the big shoots in the US. I hate to be a skeptic but I cannot see the east shooters driving all that distance to shoot in a CDN SS when they are so close to some of the biggest matches in North America. I have even been told to miss the Nationals in the west and go to the SS or US nationals. I do not want to miss what we have here. I feel it is important to support the little we have in Canada.

I would like to be proven wrong.

DanO said:
I would also like to see a Canadian Nationals, but I do not think that we have the kind of commitment to make it happen. This is both in the volume of shooter and venues that would attract folks to commit to the time, cost and distance(s) to make it worth the effort vs. other available events.
Not a very positive response i know, but I would make an effort to attend such an event were it held.
IF the response was there by the shooters, who would have the time and energy to run such an event?? Which organization would be the one to sanction the event?? Unsanctioned as the SS is??
It is going to take a very committed individual(s) to get this idea off the ground, and I do wish them luck (they will get my support) if they do take the idea forward.

John VM said:
I agree that right now it isn't hopefull of having one in the near future but I do think it is good to talk about it and maybe visualize what could be done in the future. It is good to know what everybody else thinks about issues.
One issue I have is that I find the classes redundant as far as HV, LV and SP go and think a varmint for score and a group shoot together would make things more interesting.

Tony Gauthier said:
I think it is time for me to wade in to this one. A true National match is being held in Canada! At the BRSC annual meeting last August a motion was tabled and passed unanimously that the Western regional would become the National Match. This was done do largely to the fact that only 3 affiliated clubs are holding BRSC registered matches.

The trophy at this time says Western Regional Match and so we need to change that or make a new trophy, which is something that the executive are working on at this time. Paul is pricing a new trophy compared to fixing the existing one. I am pretty sure it will be just as cost effective to start out with a new one. We will have to decide if the original trophy will remain as is with the plaques in place or changed over to the new trophy. I am of the opinion that anyone who has won that trophy up until Aug. 2009 has won the Western Regional and so it should remain as it is and a new one started with Robert Seeman winning the first National’s. This is something the executive will work out over the winter once we have a cost of each.
As the bylaws and rules are set up at this time any affiliated club can bid on and host this match upon winning the bid. At present time it has been alternated between the 3 active clubs. I think that alternating between clubs is the most beneficial to generating interest in bench rest in Canada. It gives exposure to our sport in all active areas of Canada.

I think that the key words in this are active and affiliate and would like to hear what everyone’s idea of active is. Affiliate is obviously any club paying there BRSC dues.
If you look to the south they basically work the Nationals in the same way. They deal with the same geographical problems we do. When they are held in the East people spend a few days on the road. That is a given in our sport, it is part of our life. You have to just get over it and get ‘er done. The local clubs are so few and far between that it is not possible to supply enough shooting time to stay close to home if you want to get enough shooting in to be competitive, you will willingly travel if you are as hooked as I am. And there are becoming more and more shooters in Canada who are realizing this. We are at a great point in bench rest as we are seeing an increase in shooters at matches in the last couple of years.

That tells me that our direction has been working, maybe not as fast as we like or as it could, but is working. Now is the time to figure out how to improve our direction to improve our results. We need the input of every bench rest shooter to do this and what better place than on the only Canadian bench rest forum?

Tony Gauthier said:

[cyanchycki:] "The biggest issue I see is the distance required to travel be it east or west. How many are actually willing to travel to make it work? The east shooters have great shoots in the US which are within a few hours. Unfortunately the west has just Tacoma and that is not a short trip either. So would it work? Who knows? Centralizing it would be great for me but it still leaves long drives for the east and west shooters. Would east or west shooters drive to say Selkirk every other year if it was held in Selkirk?

I hear quite often you have not shot BR unless you have shot the big shoots in the US. I hate to be a skeptic but I cannot see the east shooters driving all that distance to shoot in a CDN SS when they are so close to some of the biggest matches in North America. I have even been told to miss the Nationals in the west and go to the SS or US nationals. I do not want to miss what we have here. I feel it is important to support the little we have in Canada.

I would like to be proven wrong."[cyanchycki:]

Actually there are a few more matches in the west and some of them much closer for you, just not in Canada. Montana matches are being held in Helena and Billings. I am not sure if the Prairie Dog Target Club in south Dakota is holding matches, but if so, how far of a drive from Brandon would that be? I think it would be fun to hit one of the Montana matches. Helena would be doable for me as I could leave from work and be there on a friday evening.
I wish Lethbridge would hold a couple of matches. I wouldn't be surprised if they still had all of the equipment required. A few more clubs holding matches would also take the pressure off of the 3 in western Canada that are. I think that you may see a few U.S. shooters at a match in Lethbridge as it is a short trip for some of them!

John VM said:
It is good to hear that the BRSC has already picked up on a National event. I do have to plead ignorance on Benchrest in Western Canada. I have personally met Dan O and Jeff W at the World Shoot in 05 and at the previous Super Shoot. Could someone help and introduce some of us easterners to what it is like shooting in the west. I am genuinely interested in the size of the range as in how many benches and locations of the ranges? How many clubs at one time or another hosted BR matches?

Tony Gauthier said:
Rosebud has 14 benches and is situated in Kananaskis Prov. Park. Beautiful location, but like any range built on the side of a mountain it can be tricky with conditions.
Regina has approx. 20 benches and is no where near a mountain! It has some strong winds but usually repeat.
Selkirk is fairly sheltered by trees, but you need to watch for Mosquitos. There are lots and some are big enough to cause flyers. (that is my excuse and am sticking to it). It and Rosebud also have wasps but please see that story in off topic.

John VM said:
I have not been to Western Canada but from memory the Rosebud is in Alberta and the Regina club is of course in Sask. and Selkirk is in Man.. I have relatives in Carman Man. and have heard about the migration of the mosquitos but am just learning of the wasps through the adventures of our good friend and competitor Calvin. Thanks Tony!

Bill Gammon said:
If you look to the south they basically work the Nationals in the same way. They deal with the same geographical problems we do. When they are held in the East people spend a few days on the road. That is a given in our sport, it is part of our life. You have to just get over it and get ‘er done. The local clubs are so few and far between that it is not possible to supply enough shooting time to stay close to home if you want to get enough shooting in to be competitive, you will willingly travel if you are as hooked as I am. And there are becoming more and more shooters in Canada who are realizing this. We are at a great point in bench rest as we are seeing an increase in shooters at matches in the last couple of years.
I suggest to you that the only reason you are seeing an increase in shooters is because you have a govering body such as BRSC that now has an executive and who are collectively working to-gether to creat a country wide association, and I hope, "country wide" being the KEY words. You must have a governing body of people who are accountable to the membership! Without this, you will be nothing, the asoc. will be nothing. Look at the clubs in your area, they all have a governing body set up to be accountable to the membership, that "I believe" to be the key. I could quote a couple of examples but would probably get kicked off of here, EH!

cyanchycki said:
Bill I hear what you are saying. I personally feel you shooters in the south part of Ontario have a definate advantage over us in the west when it comes to access to stiff competition. What is it? A few hours for you into Michigan and you get to shoot against some pretty good shooters? Living in Manitoba I definately have a FULL 2 days drive if I want to attend a major event more realistically possibly closer to 3 if I want to drive sensibly.

I do hope and want to see BRSC succeed. I think it can and will if we work together and leave the east versus west thing in the back forty. I do not know all the history about the past be it good or bad but those of us who love this sport have to move on to pass it on to the next group of new shooters. For example there are 4 new shooters at Selkirk who are committed to the sport myself being 1 and my new buddies from Kenora.

Matches should be registered through the BRSC in the east and west. Shooters who want to compete should be a member of the BRSC to take any hardware home. Unfortunately it may be like starting anew but we must start somewhere.

To have a TRUE Canadian SS(Nationals) it realistically should be held every second year. Again we would ALL have to be on the same page. Those shooters who frequent the US SS or Nationals could maybe do so every other year to support the Canadian shoot. The following year we could maybe go as a group to the SS or Nationals to still show our Canadian support in the US?

JMO's
Calvin