Why Don’t More Shooters Use H322?

[Lawrence Hanson]

Why is Hodgdons H322 not used by many competitors in benchrest competition?  I have been using both VV133 and H322 (Extreme) for the past three years and can’t understand why most shooters prefer VV133.  They both appear to hold a tune about the same and foul about the same; H322 may be slightly dirtier burning.  I have found that H322 flows better through my powder measure and produces the same level of accuracy and velocity as VV133 in the 6PPC and 22PPC-.100 Short. I can also find several pounds of the same lot of H322 on the shelf locally; this is important considering Helena Montana is off the beaten path.  I can’t see that one is significantly better than the other in terms of performance; so why aren’t more folks using it? 
Lawrence

[cyanchycki]

Well Lawrence if I KNEW the answer I would tell you, I DON'T.

Sorry.

Calvin

[Lawrence Hanson]

Calvin,

Thanks for the no-BS response.  That is the reason why I posted my question on this forum.
It is a pleasure to receive responses from straight shooters.

Sincerely,
Lawrence

[rpollock]

Lawrence,

Lots of shooting and records were set over the years with 322. The problem is we are sheep to some degree. If some of the top 20 guys were advocating H322 we would all have it by the truckload! Over the last few years the powder of the day seems to be N133. XBR8208 didn't find favour. The old 8208 is still being shot by quite a few guys. Going to be pretty hard to knock N133 off the perch.

[Lawrence Hanson]

Good insight, but I still have a question regarding comparison of the performance of the two powders.  Is N133 really better than H322?  Am I wasting my time with H322 because I haven’t figured out the secrets of using N133?  Perhaps my shooting skills have not reached a level where I am able to conclusively determine a difference between the two. I would just like to know if there are others who can clearly explain why N133 is considered superior to H322, or other powders.

Thanks,
Lawrence     

[cyanchycki]

Lawrence I did some searching.  There were a couple things I could find.  Some shooters felt it just would not agg like 133 did for them.  It would shoot but not consistently like 133.  The other is that some felt H322 is faster than 133.  This may play in part to having the right powder to bore ratio which appears to be what makes the PPC what it is.

For myself the trip to the NBRSA Nationals opened a whole new outlook on the sport.  

There is so much talk about shooting the upper window with 133.  That may be possible if you have one of those magic lots of 133 with a wide window.  There has also been talk about some of the newer lots of 133 not shooting.  I think this ma ybe in part to guys being spoiled having so much powder and running out that they expect there new lot to act the same. I do believe it is the right thing to buy as much powder as you can and learn its quirks to make it shoot.  The drawback is when you run out of that lot and have to start again.  The other thing I found out is there are a lot of shooters who win and do not shoot in that upper window.  They are shooting light loads of 133.  Some as low as in the upper 27 grains.

My suggestion is to watch Jack Neary's video and shoot the grid trying to find your load window.  It shortens the learning curve and I believe it works.  The other thing is to try LOTS of neck tension.  I would try at least 4 thou more than your loaded round.  

Basically watch the 6 part presentation and take notes for future reference.  In that hour sitting in on that presentation in Kansas I learned more than I thought I new.

I have a 243 that gives me fits trying to find a load I am happy with.  I try  the magic case filling powders for my light bullets and the same for the heavies and I just have not got the results I want.  I have a coffee buddy who bought a 243 and swears by Varget for all his loads in the 243.  The groups I have seen have made me jealous.  I have never been a fan of Varget as I have never had success with it.  I guess it is another powder I will have to buy and try.

Calvin

[Lawrence Hanson]

Calvin,
Thanks for the research; the results were what I was looking for.  I will give N133 another trial at lower pressures to see what happens.  And I will watch the Jack Neary video.

You are right about H322 being faster burning than N133; that has also been the case in my experience. I will give higher neck tension a try as well.  Thanks for all the help.

Lawrence     

[cyanchycki]

Lawrence I would also add that there are quite a few Canadian shooters who have had success up here with 322.  I think at the time it was a LOT MORE readily available in Canada than trying to get 133.

For myself I have never tried 322 or Benchmark.  I have tried some of the NEW XBR 8208 and did not like how DIRTY it is in comparison to the 133.  That is the MAIN reason I shoot it.  The guys who shoot way more than myself have said to get 133.  The added bonus is how CLEAN the VV powders are.  I ahve yet to have 133, 135 or 140 burn dirty.

Maybe if some of those OLD TIMERS will get there fingers working on the keyboard they may be able to tell you more.

Calvin

[Bill Gammon]

I was not going to get on this, but OH WELL!! If you want to use H322 buy 50lbs of the "SAME" lot number. If you want to use V-133, do the same, an powder do the same. Then take the time to learn to shoot it. Learn how it works, learn it's little secrets. Pros, if it is good you have 50lbs of it, if it is bad, as to your taste in powder, you bought 50lbs at once for a reduced rate sell the rest off at a profit. Every time you buy powder in 8lb kegs you will get a different lot number and each one will have it's own character and you will never shoot worth a dam. Example 1991 H322 was fast, 1992 a tad slower, 1993 slower again, 1994 and 1995 were so slow you could catch them in your hand, well they went back up to 1998 which had the same HP as 1991. V133, in 1997 I bought a keg and shot it for a few years, loved it. Bought another keg in 2001, tad slower but really workable. Bought a keg of 2005 and got rid of it a month later at a profit, bought another keg 2008 which I still use. The problem with H322 it is a fast powder and with V133 being a tad slower it is easy to tune. Go to the range start at 53 clicks, then 54, then 55. With H322 start at 48, 48.5, 49, 49.5 but don't go much higher. And if you have worked with that particular powder you will know when it has reach it's peak and when you can go up a tad. H322 is a good powder, just takes more tuning but your groups will tell you what to do.

[gyeomans]

A bunch of us in CR have switched to VV133 from H322E because of a spreadsheet program that was on 6br.com a couple of years ago.  It showed that VV133 would give approx 40% better bbl life than 322.  The program was supposedly validated with real data from various target shooters.  We thought, what the hell, why not get more bbl life.  VV is a little harder to get but we manage.

cheers
Greg

[Lawrence Hanson]

That might explain why my 22PPC-.100 Short barrel took a dump on me this summer.  I had been using around 26 grains of H322 in it all season. It lost its edge and became a real pain to keep clean. I will have a new 22PPC-.100 Short barrel put on this winter and will make N133 the priority powder in it next season. Thanks for the insight on barrel life.
Lawrence       

[cyanchycki]

QUOTE:  I was not going to get on this, but OH WELL!!

Bill, new shooters like myself value information passed on from veteran shooters.  The more participation in the discussions the more we learn and the sooner we can feel CONFIDENT enough to one day BEAT you SILLY..................... 

Thanks for your take on the subject.  You were the one who told me a while back to buy as much powder of the same lot possible and learn to shoot it.  I have never forgot that.  Now did I learn anything from that lot I have???  I maybe have enough for 2-3 years and then the big order goes back in.  Hopefully there will be a decent lot floating around then.

Cheers and Happy Gobble Gobble Day.

[Lawrence Hanson]

This has been a good discussion, I have learned a lot from it.  I’m going to take Calvin and Bill’s advice and buy all the N133 I can afford and learn to make it work.  Thanks to all for your contributions.

Sincerely,
Lawrence        

[K Hope]

Probably BS……… but, here goes my speculative hypothesis.

Every producer has their own formula and process for Nitrocellulose and even still burn rates vary between lot to lot.  Part of the process is the addition of different stabilizers and or deterrents in order to control and maintain the ballistic stability. However, it may well be - changes of these same beneficial additives - that contribute in part to its recalcitrant behavior in the environment.

Ken