HELLO Everyone...NEWBIE with questions

[barcher]

First of all and again...HELLO everyone.
I am a long time coyote hunter from south Sask and have been playing around with wildcat cartridges for about 5 years now.
I am finding out that I get less excited about calling coyotes now and more excited about target shooting. So I'd like to get into benchrest.
Hope to meet some of you fine folks at Regina in the future.
Couple questions if you dont mind...
I see Regina typically schedules an annual shoot however, is there more shooting get-togethers or casual shooting events held there?

And I'd just like to rattle off a little info about the three rifles I shoot just so maybe a few of you might reply back as to wether my rifles are adequate enough to get my feet wet this year in benchrest or perhaps the rifles are all wrong???

19-223 Calhoon 26" Pac-Nor approx. 10.5#
22-243 Middlestead 26" Lilja approx 12#
6MM Ack Imp 27" Gaillard approx 12.5#

Any advice would be appreciated,
Thanks
Brian

[rpollock]

Hi Brian, welcome to the forum. You are in good company here as we have a number of BR shooters from Sask, not to mention quite a few coyote callers as well!

Any of those rifles will work to attend a shoot with, and get your feet wet. In time your equipment will evolve into the BR specific cartridges and platforms. Don't be in a hurry to make a bunch of changes in your equipment until you attend a few shoots and get a feel for what people are using.

I don't know what Regina has planned for shoots in 2011, we will likely find out in the Spring.

Where in Sask are you?

Rick

[barcher]

I'm southwest of Moose Jaw about 150km from Regina.

[Lawrence Hanson]

Hey Brian,

Welcome to the forum.  It’s a great benchrest competition forum. This is also the most friendly and helpful forum that I have visited.  But if you would like to talk about coyote hunting, I would like to hear from you. 

Lawrence Hanson
Helena Montana

[rpollock]

Brian,

We will likely hold a introductory BR clinic at Rosebud this coming year. This would be a one day affair in May. The idea would be to cover the basics of of equipment, shooting a match, scoring, wind reading and anything else we can come up with. The Rosebud Club is west of Calgary about 80km http://www.benchrest.ca/Clubs.html if you can swing a trip West I am certain it would be well worth the drive.

Rick

[barcher]

I'll defenitely keep that in mind. Thanks Rick.
Should be good coyote huntin in your neck of the woods too Lawrence.

[Joe Mendham]

  Welcome  Brian.    Coyote  hunting is a good place to start and to come from for Benchrest shooting. You've probably already got a lot of reloading equipment already .  What actions are your guns built on ? You may have to rebarrel one to get competitive.
 Keep the questions coming.

Joe

[cyanchycki]

Yoooooooooooooo Brian, welcome to the addicting sport of Benchrest.  Looks like you have a GREAT start in the accuracy department with your semi custom rifles.  Ask as many questions as you can.  Never feel that a question may be stupid.  Trust me I know what stupid is.  I gave the guys at the big US based website the what for when I questioned what was wrong with my silky smooth Sako TRG as a BR action.  I took it on the chin big time.  Dusted off, soaked all the info I could and shoot BR and LOVE IT.  You will not be hit as hard as I was TRUST ME.

As Rick stated not sure what will be planned for a shoot in Regina this year but we have 3 shoots in Selkirk this year.  We are looking at around the time frames of May 14 and 15 and August 13/14 for the shoots in Selkirk.  This year we are hosting the 2011 Canadian Nationals as well.  That should be July 2/3.  You are more than welcome to attend.  We should have some shooters from Sask for those shoots and are hoping for a record crowd for the Nationals.

I am still fairly new to the game but will help you as best I can.  I have set up my own range at the family farm about 50 minutes west of Russell.  If you ever end up our way in Manitoba I would be more than willing to talk BR and do some shooting.  Heck we can shoot anywhere from 100 yards out to 1000 yards.

Again great to have another interested party.

Calvin   

[barcher]

Thanks again guys!!!!
Joe...all three of my rifles are blueprinted 700s.

Well Calvin...I'll take you up on the opportunity to ask what may seem like some silly questions.

The question I gotta ask is what makes the 6PPC so great??? It's evident its the big dog in benchrest!

Also I'm going to order a scope...just something to get started...which do you guys recommend...

Weaver T36 or Sightron II 36X42 BR D

[cyanchycki]

Brian, I cannot give you for 100% sure the answer but I am sure there are a few who can.  I think the biggest thing is MAGIC................

It appears to have the PERFECT powder to bore ratio that when the sweet spot is found bullets tend to follow one another to the target.  As Jack Neary has said when the rifle is in tune the bullets KNOW where to go.........

That is all I can tell you.  A MAGIC combination that Pindell and Palmisano found.  Here is something for you.

6MM PPC -- The Benchmark of Accuracy

Developed by Louis Palmisano and Ferris Pindell (left and right in photo), the 6PPC is the "King of the Hill" in short-range benchrest competition, the most accurate cartridge ever invented. It completely dominates 100- and 200-yard Group BR Shooting. If you want to win in that game, you pretty much have to shoot a 6PPC, or some derivative of the 6PPC design. Easily made from Lapua 220 Russian brass, the 6mm PPC, like the 6mm BR Norma, has a small primer and small flash hole. The small flash hole/primer accounts for much of the 6PPC's superior accuracy, though nobody really knows precisely how or why. The "short, fat" shape and nearly straight body contribute to efficient, consistent combustion and good "chamber behavior". The 6PPC's case capacity, case size to bore ratio, and combustion properties seem to be just about ideal for the short 6mm match bullets. A 6BR can come close, but when the goal is shooting "zero" groups at 100 and 200 yards, the 6PPC is the clear winner. Currently most 6PPC shooters form their cases from Lapua 220 Russian brass. Both SAKO and Norma make factory-formed 6PPC cases, but these are not commonly used. The Sako 6PPC USA is slightly larger, and will not fit in most current match chambers. The Norma 6PPC brass is somewhat softer than Lapua brass. It works fine for varminting or fun shooting, but it will not hold up to the stout loads used in competition as well as brass formed from Lapua 220 Russian.
 

Calvin

[rpollock]

Brian,

either of those scopes will work. You see more Weavers than Sightrons, probably because the Weaver has been around longer.

One of the key ingredients in the success of the PPC is the Lapua 220 Russian brass. It is very uniform, resists work hardening, can take lots of pressure, not sure what we would do without it.

[suitty]

brian all the info the guys are telling you is the truth. i shot a weaver t36 for a couple of years and like it . also haave a bushnell 36 and 36 leoup are aim A-1.i would start of with your 22=243 recoil should be mild.trigger pull should be as low as you can get it and still be safe. i asked as many questions as i could when i started out. br shooters are great and will answer any think you want.  all br rifles shoot very well and who ever reads the wind flags the best are on top. so get your stuff together and start having fun and yes this sport is very much like cocaine very habit forming. but more fun then anything i;vefound, other then sex, drinking, smokeing and prone. suittie

[Seiber]

Calvin:


What's a wind flag?  And do I need this to shoot?   

[barcher]

Thought I should ask...is there a velocity restrictions at any BR ranges???

What would be the majority average, as far as barrel length and contour, on all these 6PPCs being used?

Does the 6BR typically make a close 2nd place? As far as being competitive with the 6ppc?

[cyanchycki]

Brian no velocity restrictions.  Depending who you talk to they have a velocity that works for them and that they strive for.  Others like myself velocity is a NON issue.  We are looking for a load that groups a nice round 5 shot hole.

Barrel length in the 20-22 inch mark in a LV contour.  This usually is a barrell with a muzzle diameter of a .900-.920 at 22".  This is where length does NOT matter.  Short and stiff is better.  There are many who run HV tapers but have to run barrels in the 20 inch mark to make weight.  Light stock with a light action gives you more barrel that one can use.

In regards to a 6BR, anyone who shoots shortrange competitively does not waste there time with a 6BR.  It is close but just not close enough.  Have I experienced it I would say yes but not to the extent taht some of the US shooters have experienced.  It works to get your feet wet or shines quite well at 600 and does hold many records at 1000.  If you are thinking rebarreling, there are a lot of good reamers around MB SASK and Alberta that can more than likely be used as well as GOOD smiths to do the work.

Calvin

[barcher]

Thanks again Calvin...
I'll explain my situation and you guys can help me make my decisions.

First of all I've got a newly built 6MM AI...136 rounds thru it, with a 1 in 12 twist, 26 7/8"(Gaillard) #5contour(as it is its about 12.4#)...currently shooting 69gr bergers.(the old gaillard barrel on it I had shot on occasion high .1s on a 3 shot group. This one so far just .207 on a 3 shot group...haven't found the pet load yet) Now I talked to my smith about rechambering it to 6BR he wasn't exactly sure about stabilizing 66-69gr bullets with a 1in12(with regards to 6BR)(I just assumed if it stablized them as a 6MM AI it should also with the other 243dia calibre...but thats why hes the smith and I run a grader). He certainly thought Ted would be a good guy to contact(which I will but likely some of you can help here as well)
Obviously if I go this route it gets me going with a lot less $$$.
Another question however...how does this 6BR(with a 22" barrel lets say) do against my existing 6MM AI at greater distances ie 500,600 yds???

[rpollock]

Brian,

1/12 twist will easily stabilize the 66-69 gr bullets. Typical twist for 6mm in a PPC or BR with 63-68 grainers is 13.5-14.0 twist. You could re-chamber it to a BR, and it would work fine for getting your feet wet.

Not sure how the 6BR will fair at 500-600 with light bullets though, pretty sure I would use a fast twist 6BR and heavy bullets for that. But that is another whole topic, of which I know nothing!

Generally speaking what works in short range BR will end up being a purpose built rifle that doesn't do much else very well except shoot through the same hole at 100-200 yds. They make lousy field guns, or f class guns etc.

Being that you are in Sask you may want to get in touch with Ted Gaillard and talk things over with him. Ted recently mentored James G  in BR, and James is kicking our collective butts at the moment! James was in your shoes only 2 years ago. Both Ted and James pop in here once in a while.

[cyanchycki]

James in theory your 6BR will be definately shorter in velocity as compared to the 6mmAI.  Accuracy wise it is a 6BR so it should be VERY GOOD regardless of barrel length shooting the same weight projectiles.  What the 6BR should show you is more wind drift because of the slower velocity.

As Rick said if you can get talking with Ted (Wealth of Knowledge) he may have better answers on that.  Ted also showed us a lesson in shooting at the August Match in Selkirk.  Calm, steady, cool hand Ted.

Calvin 

[Joe Mendham]

  Brian
 You'd probably be better off going the switch barrel route. Get another barrel 1-14 twist  and chamber it up for your caliber of choice . Then you can keep the 1-12 for coyotes or whatever..
 Don't know what you have for a stock either but if it's a factory one that should be changed as well for a more bench friendly stock.
 At least your Remington actions are accurized ,so you don't have to change that,unless you're going to go custom action.

Joe

[gyeomans]

Hi Brian, in Campbell River we have 10 Fun BR Shoots/yr from 100 to 500yds depending on weather.  There are a multitude of calibers shot from .222's to .308's.  The custom class guns are all 6ppc's and they do fine shooting 65-68 gr bullets out to 500yds and nothing touches them at 100-200.   2" - 2.5" groups are not uncommon at 500. 

There are guys(myself included) that have Factory Custom guns like your 700 with custom bbls/stocks/triggers chambered in 6br.  I have a 700 in 6br with a 14 twist and 9 twist bbls.  I shoot 68 gr Barts out of the 14 and 90 Bergers from the 9.  The wind will push the lighter bullets around more than the lighter ones but that's not to say that you can't shoot a good group with the 68's.  Reading the wind/mirage/light changes, is where it's at no matter what you're shooting. 

If I were you, and I wanted to start shooting short range BR, I'd get a 13.5-14 twist bbl for my 700, get it chambered for a 6ppc and do a switch bbl.  You will have to adjust your Rem extractor or put in a Sako style to grab the smaller dia case.   The ppc will give you the confidence that any errors in the group did not come from the cartridge.  The 6br is an accurate cartridge and is very good with bigger bullets but history has proven that the case capacity/bullet combo that outperforms in short range BR is the 6ppc.  For that matter take your $700 for a new bbl job and sink it into Rick Pollocks PGW LV and have at 'er.  If you're into little bitty groups, you'll just end up with a custom gun one day anyway, might as well start out with one.

cheers
Greg