Canadian Barrel Makers.....

[duceman]

i know i am a newbie in this benchrest community, but  i am constantly perplexed why everyone is so eager to send their hard earned money across the border, when we have  great barrel makers here in canada.
ron smith is a legend on both sides of the border, ted gailard(spelling), and a newer guy on the block,  bob jury in red deer alberta, all support the canadian economy with their earnings.
i own a lilja barrel in .25 cal, and it shoots great, bought it second hand.
my latest barrel is by bob jury, chambered 6br, 10 gain twist, and shoots great.
fouling is almost non existent as  well, indicating that he knows how to leave a bore finished.
perhaps if we supported more local business, more guys would step up to supply us with our shooting needs; barrels, actions, components, etc.
just my .02 cents, lee

[cyanchycki]

My thoughts, and not something against our Canadian manufacturers. I like to think I am still fairly new to the game and learning every time I go to a match. 

For me, it is wanting to have tried all the top barrel makers be it Canadian made or American made.  I have shot Ted's, and Kreigers.  I have some Bartleins and MacLennans to try that have not been chambered.  I also want to try Shilen, Hart, and Lilja.  Why? No reason in particular.  Just something I need and want to do for myself.  If I did not have a dozen barrels sitting in my locker I would be ordering some Lilja's to try.

As a side note I believe over the last 4 or 5 years the 2 Gun winners at Selkirk have shot Ted's barrels.  My 2 2-Guns were shot with Ted's barrels.  I currently have a HART barrel on my 223 that I am really impressed with.  Do I wish I had a Dozen of them, OH YAH.  I can't wait until I get it bedded into the Shehane Tracker stock I have to see what potential it may have then.  I have more confidence in it at the present than I do my bench rifles. 

Being realistic, we have choices of where we spend our money be it Canadian or American.

[duceman]

good discussion guys. my intent was not to slam guys for choosing what ever product they want; another great reason to live in canada is free will!
as a small business owner, i go out of my way to support local and other small business every day. i will pay slightly more for the same type of product; to support local, provided it does the same job.
when i hear stories of 6 weeks to a year and half wait times for products, add on the border hassles, (which i don't think will get any better in the future), it would seem to me that supporting local means even more.
perhaps with more business inside our borders, some talented folks making shooting supplies as a hobby could ramp up to a steady business.
i'm sure american makers appreciate our money, but keeping out money in the country will only benefit our own economy in the end.
i'm not sure if bob jury makes the large diameter you are looking for, but i would sure make a quick phone call.
to get info on jury barrels, contact bob galloway at custom gunworx in rocky mtn house, lee

[duceman]

just checked my invoice, my jury barrel cost me $400 and tax. lee

[cyanchycki]

I may say things that are going to pee people off but remember we are TOUGH behind a keyboard.

Lee, do you shoot short range BR?

For a few of us Canadians who want/would like to be the best in this country it is not about buying Canadian made or supporting Canadian it is about taking full advantage of what is out there to help us get there.  Yah I will never be a HALL OF FAME shooter or will I?  I can count on my hand the Western Canadians who actually travel outside of there provinces or even Canada to better themselves at the sport.  We choose to use the components we do or who we decide to support.  This is NEVER going to change.  There are those that dabble in the sport, then there are those of us who eat, breath, sleep Bench Rest.  I do.  Yes, I have no life outside of it.  It is my passion and my number 1 hobby.  I tell everyone, if it does not have ti+s, involve whiskey, or go bang, I am NOT interested.

Getting back to the Canadian thing.  Why then is a jug of 133 $100.00/8lb jug more in Canada than the US?  As a matter of fact why is most powders almost $10.00/lb more in Canada than the US?  I am not endorsing anything.  It is just a question.  It is cheaper for me to go to Phoenix to shoot not taking any reloading components buying them down there, using what I need, and leave the rest behind.  Yes I should support our economy but I bust my butt for my small paycheque and I will spend it where I choose.  I would rather have the extra money in my pocket rather than anothers.

I am getting off topic here.

Back to barrels.  Who is Jury?  Never heard of the man.  How long has he been making barrels?  What is his resume?  The little I have heard he has just started making barrels??

See I have this thing about paying top dollar for something made or done by someone who is GREEN.  I or someone may be willing to try a 6mm 13.5 twist barrel.  If he is new at this barrel making thing, like I said above I am reluctant to give a newby the same kind of money than someone who has been at it for years.  I do know that MacLennan has been making barrels longer than Gaillard.  Ted actually learned what he knows from Rob and many calls and conversations States side with some pretty good machinists.  Actually even some real good machinists in Manitoba.

Bottom line Bench Rest is the pinacle of the accuracy game and NO ONE wants to leave anything on the table so guys will spend where they choose.  That will never change.

Now back to the original post.  Mr. Richard is placing a Lilja barrel order, if ANYONE is interested contact him.

and

YES

I have been called a butt hole many times and will be called that just about daily the rest of my walking breathing time on this planet.

JMO
Calvin     

[rpollock]

Just a bit of context before people get wrapped around the axle on barrels:

First, I have met Bob Jury and visited his shop. He has not been making barrels very long, but he is serious about making good barrels. There are a number of us with his barrels on order and will be able to try them this season. It is nice to have another Canadian vendor of barrels to say the least.

Second, Lee (Duceman) will be in Rosebud's BR101 this year and we look forward to his participation. Lee has been around the accuracy game for some time, and I am sure will bring some much needed new blood to the game.

Now back to the Lilja thread!

Rick

[duceman]

hey calvin, you'll never hear me call you a 'butthole', especially after internet conversations!! that bridge can only be crossed in real life meetings. i really hate eating crow, but will if need be, so alot easier to base your opinions on face to face than the interweb, where all forms of context are gone forever.(ask jefferson)
i look at all you veterans as mentors, i admit to stealing all the info and knowledge i can for free from you when your not looking.
i wish i was in your shoes as far as living the dream shooting full time, hopefully some day.
i do spend all my waking hours thinking about shooting, but only get to play when i'm not forced to chase the mortgage payment.
as far as powder prices go, we're getting screwed, plain and simple. correct me if i'm wrong, but there are no canadian manufacturers for powder any more, are there? i know i stock up when ever i get the chance in the states as well, same as a lot of things,there is no reason for such a price differential.
i'm not a short range bench shooter, but gonna test the waters and see if it turns my crank. right now f-class has got a hold on me, and i figure anything i can learn in the accuracy game will benfit no matter which discipline you choose.
best 100yd agg so far  is .557, i don't think you guys need to worry about me taking your trophies at the shoots.
i'm getting comfortable at 500 now though, with a 3 group agg last weekend of .337. i find it much easier to shoot tighter at longer distances, unless your gonna throw some wind in the mix. that is my next curve, i figure my equipment and loads are well ahead of my ability now.
now that rick has done a better job of introducing you to bob jury, perhaps a little more research will help you to consider some of his work. i would venture a guess that neither  rob, ted, ron, dan, or any other barrel maker came out of the womb with the knowledge to make match winning barrels, probably were new at some time as well.
thanks for kind words rick, i'll see you guys at the range, lee

[rpollock]

Can someone come up with a comprehensive list of Canadian Barrel Makers and contact info? These guys are the best kept secrets in Canada.

[BobR]

The Canadian Barrel makers I know about (I generally use Ted's barrels and they have been very good):


                                   http://www.angelfire.com/blues/shootingpaul/gaillardpricelist.html -Ted Gaillard, Sask (306)752-3769
                                   Ron Smith, Alberta, (403)631-2405
                                   Rob MacLellan, Ont (705)526-2159
                                   http://www.riflebarrels.ca/html/mcphee_barrels.html - Mick McPhee (.30 Cal), (250)376-7886

[lejarretnoir]

Here's a question.
How long does it take for the Canadian barrel makers to get a barrel done?

I once ordered a barrel a decade ago from Rob McLennan that took two weeks and another that took over a year.
I recently grabbed a Gaillard from a private exchange only because he had it for sale.
I heard McPhee doesn't sell just a barrel and he must install it or nothing.
Don't know about Ron Smith, but I also heard he use to work for McLennan long ago.

Would love to buy only Canadian as I've done well so far with most Canadian barrels, but some were real poopers too including some new American barrel makers. It's disheartening to spend money and wait almost a year to find accuracy mediocre at best.
It has become much simpler to just buy a Krieger, Bartlein, Broughton, Hart.

Time will tell if another barrel maker can make it happen and yes I'll support it.

[Dwayne Cyr]

Call me a dabbler, I have a life outside of Benchrest. I have only used Ted's barrels and they have been excellent. Its the convenience of dropping a money order in the mail and the barrel shows up in the mail. No import B.S.

Also, Canadian barrels are not mass produced. The barrel maker spends the time and effort to produce his best barrels and somebody like me puts a tuner on it. Some guys could have the best barrel in the world and not know it because they can't tune and they can't shoot.

D.C.

[singleshotom]

Just to clear up what Ive read on here.
 Ron Smith never worked for anyone, he is a self taught barrel maker and built his rifling machine about 1964 and has made many improvements. He produced gain twist and striaght twist barrels in most calibers. He used a single point cutter and makes them out of both chrome moly and stainless steel.
Many people here in the west and in the USA are very familiar and happy with his barrels.
It always amazes me that many Canadian target shooters dont have knowledgew of him or his work.
Maybe some of you guys should give a great Canadian barrel maker a try and see for yourself what you might be missing.
I support the idea of Canadian made and in this case they are second to none.
He has a wait time right now of about 2 months for a barrel blank.
If your interested give him a call at 1-403-631-2405 
SST

[rpollock]

Tom,

Do you know if Ron laps his barrels? I am under the understanding he doesn't.

Rick

[singleshotom]

Rick, he doesn't lap and believes that single point cut rifled barrels don't require lapping.
I'll try and explain his reasoning:
If a barrel is buttoned there is stresses introduced as the button is pulled or pushed through. Resulting in high and low spots withing the bore. Thus lapping is required to even out the tight spots that are there as a result in that process.
In years past he used this process, and was unhappy with adding stress to the barrel.
He then returned to cut rifling and found that there was a very controlled removal of steel without adding any stress to the barrel.
He has found out that he can cut the rifling so that there is about a half-thousandths choke breach to muzzle, which he believes helps keep the bullet seal solid.
One thing he does in gain twist, which was only done many years ago for black powder guns and was sort of forgotten. A-lot of people think this is useless with modern guns, but many people who shoot long range high power guns have found that barrel life is noticeably longer, some have reported that they get from a third to double the shot count. Ron believes that its due to the fact that there is a reduced pressure start and less bullet slippage then a straight twist barrel. (Which he also makes.) Less torque on the rifling at the breach end.
His answer to people who ask about ``lapping`` is if a barrel is made the right way there is no need for it. And its not a shot at other barrel makers its a conclusion he has come up with after making many thousands of barrels over the last 49 or 50 years.
Many wont agree with any of this, but some of those should just try one and see for them selves.
SST

[duceman]

hey tom, thanks for chiming in. if i'm not mistaken, aren't you the fella that won a match or 2 with a barrel ron made from rebar?
i had a bit of a chuckle with the notion that ron took 'training', and another one in regrard to lapping.
i've only been to ron's shop a few times, and only bought 3 tubes from him, but the 'experience' that overwhelms you when you walk in is awesome. i still remember the look and and response i got when i asked him about the lapping!
let's just say your response was a lot more 'political'!
i am trying to verify, but i believe that bob jury took some training from ron.
as a side note, it was also pretty cool to see targets on the wall of ron's shooting ability in the shutzen game. i aspire to match some of his iron sighted targets with my scope, lee

[Pesky ab]

As I understand it Tom the reason barrel makers still lap cut barrels is due to hard spots in the steel , which seems to be the biggest complaint of barrel makers and top bench shooters alike In the last few years( they all complain that the steel is not as good as it used to be ) .it is more pronounced when pulling buttons but still can have an effect on a single point cutter. Twist on a button barrel is never dead consistent the trick is to find the spot where the rifling is either steady or preferably speeding up ,ie a gain. The other big deal for button barrels Is proper stress relieving. Not as big of a problem with cut rifle barrels but some of the top barrel makers in the U.S still stress relieve and lap after the rifling is cut. I think there are many things that go into a top performing barrel . Every barrel maker seems to have their own recipe  , learned from many years of experience. At the end of the day how it shoots in competition is all that counts for us in Benchrest.I have tried barrels from most of the "top" barrel makers in Canada an the U.S and one thing is for certain when you find a truly "hot" barrel cherish it, enjoy it and do your best to look after it because when it finally burns out you will miss it and drive your self crazy looking for another.I have not tried one of Ron's barrels as of yet probably because I have not seen any of them in the short range BR lists.doesn't mean any thing other than no ones probably tried them out yet , I am always on the hunt so would be willing to buy a couple and shoot em to see how they do . By the Best way to get the word out for our barrel makers is to get and compete.everyone wants the stuff that wins !

[lejarretnoir]

SST,
That is interesting. Yes, being from the east you hear stories about the west.
I've never seen a Ron Smith barrel and as a result no good or bad results from any competitors in F-Class.
I'm new to BR short range so I'm clueless about Ron's barrels.

So, it was Ted Gaillard who worked for Rob McLennan then. Thanks for setting me straight.
BTW, I've heard good results here in the east about Ted's barrels from competitors and everyone from the east has tried or know about Rob's barrels. He got a cut rifling machine a few years ago, but I haven't had a chance to sample one yet.

I'm still not clear about gain twist though. I always thought that it reshapes the rifling grooves on the bullet as it speeds through the barrel with a progressive twist rates. I need to see someone do well at a match with one before I'm convinced.

[singleshotom]

Lee, I am the fellow with the re-bar rifle barrel, and it has shot some incredible groups which was a pleasant surprise with what was done a joke for a match at Raton NM. I was lucky enough to win a few BR matches and events with it. And was surprised that there was a story about it in the Persision Shooting magazine last march. Some claim that article was the reason for the magazines death.
The shop at Ron's is a real eye opener for most first time visitors. Some of the bench rest target are truly incredible, but what I still am amazed at is the off hand Iron sight target shot at 200 yards being 10 shot groups under 4 inches.
A shooter that loves and understands or wonders about the inner workings of a barrel can easily enjoy a visit with Ron and is welcomed.
A few people have trained / learned the art of barrel making in his shop and anyone is welcomed to come and stay and spend time in his shop, Bob jury being on of them.
Pesky, I wont get into a long thing about lapping single point cut rifled barrels, as most people order gain twist which are impossible to lapp. Most of his are approximately 2 to 1 in gain ( 18" to 9" for example).
You are absolutely right about stress relieving steel, all I will say is there is many ways of stress relieving metal for machinabilily and neutralizing steel.
Ron practices one of the methods which work for him.
SST

[rpollock]

Tom,

 have seen the rebar barrel article. When you say have won a few matches and events with it, what classes and events are you shooting this in? Thanks.

[Pesky ab]

Only three ways to stress relieve that I know of. Heat . Cryo. And VSR . Normalizing is a different deal involving heat but at lower temps than stress relieve or heat treat .  If there is another way to remove stresses from stainless I am very interested in the process and would greatly  appreciate any info. I think gain from 18-9 is more for f class and would not be suitable for the short range game something like a 15-14 may be more appealing to the short range guys.
Thanks