Author Topic: WBC Qualifying  (Read 23379 times)

Offline LawrenceW

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Re: WBC Qualifying
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2013, 07:44:03 PM »
Hello Vera.

Just in case the Lawrence W. you are referring to in your post is me.  I would like to clarify.

The issue of whether I am eligible to shoot for the Canadian team was resolved by the WBC in 2008. The WBC determined that I am a Canadian citizen with a Canadian passport that also happens to own property in Canada, therefore as per the WBC rules, I am a Canadian and eligible to shoot for the Canadian team.  Nothing has changed with my status since 2008, therefore I am still eligible to represent Canada on the Canadian team.

The reason that I could not make it to France in 2009 was that my finances imploded and I couldn't even afford to attend local matches. It has been a couple of very tough years, but fortunately in the past year my financial situation has come roaring back and is now the strongest that it has ever been.  For the past year, I have been shooting every match that I could attend and I finally have an LV that shoots as well as my HV.

I am interested in earning my way onto a 2015 Canadian team and proudly representing my country (Canada) and my Canadian flag.

Lawrence

Offline G + V Carter

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Re: WBC Qualifying
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2013, 08:18:52 PM »
Hi Lawrence, good to hear.  I remember your needing to pull out of the worlds, sorry to know you roughed it for a while (haven't we all been there) and glad there's no issue with WBC status to qualify for Canada. 

The country is ten provinces plus territories---not East and West - well said Dave!

John, you never ramble, miss seeing you at the matches, always a good competitor and still engaged.  I never knew jet lag until I got home, Dan how do you do it!

Calvin, thanks for your courage to speak your mind and call things the way you see it, the forum isn't the best way of communicating but I know you can discuss in more detail with the guys out West.  We're all on the same team. 

Go Canada. 

Vera






Offline LawrenceW

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Re: WBC Qualifying
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2013, 08:31:43 PM »
Thanks for your kind words Vera.  Will you and George be attending the NBRSA Nationals in Holton this year?

Offline RobS

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Re: WBC Qualifying
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2013, 10:30:37 PM »
Vera
I feel in need to respond to you. You most likely stated what others were thinking. I read your reply to to my post yesterday and was shocked. I wanted to post a reply yesterday but thought it would be best to be more careful in my choice of words and wording. I feel I have been misunderstood. I in no way meant any disrespect to shooters who have represented Canada in the past or present.  
“the ability to put forward our best and most competitive teams not just the members that can afford it”.  This quote was not directed to anyone but in fact the feeling I had while competing in a prior WBC, not performing as well as I thought I should and thinking that I was there because I had put forward the money and that there were probably better representatives for the country.
 Everyone who has shot the WBC has sacrificed time, family and finances to represent our country, and I appreciate that. I am proud of the accomplishments that all of you, my team members have achieved whether it be personal bests, group records, Agg wins, or two gun placements.  Hell I scan the NBRSA magazine every month looking first for Canadian shooters. I'm sure we all do. Whether WBC, US matches big or small or Canadian shoots we are all happy to see our collective successes.
All of this being said. I stand by what I meant if not what I said or how it can across. I do apologize for what came out. In an idealistic world BR teams would have full funding to represent their countries and the only determining factor for team selection would be performance. You may or may not agree with this. We know this will never happen. Finance as well as time commitment will always be issues in this sport.
I don't want anyone to feel like a BR hypocrite because they have not represented the country at prior WBCs. I didn't like the idea that prior attendance at WBC was a determining factor in future selection but I understood the prior commitment needed to be recognized. As I have said I hoped that there was a system of selection that all could see as fair.
I read and reread the above quote and I think I see where i went wrong in the statement. " the ability to put forward our best and most competitive teams " is maybe where it should have ended. Maybe it shouldn't have been started in the first place. I see where the rest of it comes across as dismissive to the commitments that all have made whether financial or otherwise. This was not the intent.
In our country there may be an East West political rift. In BR in my mind anyway there is not. I look forward to shooting with and against everyone out East. We don't get to do it near enough in this country. I wish it were possible to have a range in this country that was convenient for all. Again will never happen and we will be dependent on US shoots  to catch up and compete with each other. My competitive nature has gotten  me into trouble before and at least Calvin doesn't have to feel like the only A Hole. We are well represented out West.
Again to anyone whom I have slighted I do apologize.

Robert Seemann      

Offline cyanchycki

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Re: WBC Qualifying
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2013, 09:02:23 AM »
Bill it is not that I have a totally different approach.  I do see the benefits of using larger US shoots and the points system.  I also do see how we can use a Canadian component to determine the teams.  I also see that there may not be an easy way.

Using the larger shoots because of the higher number of competitors and the caliber of shooters does play a role to an extent.  The biggest thing at this time that I see is if you want to win or place well one better be on there A GAME. 

What is the difference if we used solely Canadian shoots? 

Yes we do not have the numbers and I have to be CAREFUL when I say this the current Hall of Fame shooters from the NBRSA/IBS that are at the top of the leader board consistently.

Canada is a vast country just like the USA is.  If memory serves me right, the last few US teams were choosen from shoots in the east and the west.  The Cactus, The Rattlesnake, The Shamrock, East/West, and the NBRSA Nationals.  Those are solely NBRSA shoots if I am correct.

So to say that we cannot determine Team Canada from solely Canadian shoots I do not buy it.  Using points by the number of competitors one beats cuts out a lot of people.  If one can AFFORD to travel they will be able to make the big shoots where there is the opportunity to make huge points.  If one does not have that luxury of being able to financially afford it, they are out of the picture.

Living in the west the closest shoot for me in the US that would be worth going to try and gain points is the East/West.  A good hard 17 hours drive with stops only for fuel, drive thru and a pee break.  I am pretty sure I can do that in one day as I drove from Kansas City in 14 hours door to door.  I guess I could fly as well but there is those costs.  The fellas in Alberta have the Cactus.  2 days drive or a flight as well.

In the east how far would one have to go?

Honestly I think it should be about any Bench Rest shooter in Canada who has ever wanted to wear the Maple Leaf having a chance whether they can travel or not.

Anyways, what I would like to see is drop the points, NO point system.  Use ones agg's.  Keep it the same using 6 of your top Grand Agg's.  Any combination of LV and HV.  This way regardless of the amount of shooters at a shoot everyone has a chance  as long as they are paid up and part of the Canadian Bench Rest team thru OFAH. 

In the west we have enough shoots that it could be done soley with Candian shoots.  In the east how many shoots are held?  1 or 2?  if it is 2 even better.  Then we go with the best of 2 Canadian shoots and ones choosing for a shoot in the US.  If eastern Canada had 3 group shoots then we could do it solely in Canada.  But in this case if there is not, we use 2 Canadian shoots and 1 US shoot.  This way it allows one to shoose there shoot in the US.  You may have a range that you favor or do particularily well at, well I guess that is where you will probably do your US shoot.

Finally like I said I would like to see the final spot a wildcard spot in the points system qualifying that is in place at this time.  The wild card is regardless of where one shoots Canada or the US, that spot is filled by the top agg.  Take your 6 top aggs in LV and HV ONLY.  The best agg wins the Wild Card spot.  Again you should be paid up with the Canadian Benchrest Team thru OFAH to qualify.  Does that NOT make one spot a competitive spot?  You could travel in the points system but have a poor points performance, but you still out agg everyone who did not travel and decided to put there eggs in just trying for the Wild Card spot.

Does this make sense??????

As for our transplanted Canadians who live in the US and have been cleared by WBSF, they should have to shoot 1 Canadian shoot in the AGG qualifying process I mentioned earlier.

Regardless, using the excuse that we just do not have the shoots in Canada or the caliber of shooters up here does not cut it for me.  If you want to make Team Canada you WILL give it your best effort at our few smaller Canadian shoots.

Like I said I have not near the accomplishments as many of the Eastern Canadian shooters who have put lots of time, effort, and money into the sport and Team Canada but man we need to INCLUDE every Canadian.  I may not hold a World Record, or won an agg at the world's, or even shot a teen agg(no I have NEVER shot a teen agg, been very close) but I know I would do the BEST of my ability to represent our country and try and make the team.

Lawrence mentioned about stepping aside in 2009 for reasons, well I should step aside from the sport entirely for a few years as well for similar reasons but be damned if I am going to let the opportunity of a LIFETIME go unchanced.  The lawyers will get there money, she will get hers, and I will do what I can to try and make Team Canada.

Like I said I am not just speaking this for myself but for every other Canadian who may not want to speak up, or may not be too computer savy, or may not want to rock the boat.  Well I have spoken.

I am NOT saying the current process that was implemented is wrong (Heck I have talked with the AB guys about it at one point in time or another and liked it) but we need to make it a process that all Canadians can have the opportunity regardless of there financial situation.

That is it.  All I can say on this.

Calvin




     
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Offline G + V Carter

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Re: WBC Qualifying
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2013, 04:37:38 PM »
Canadian world team members must be the best we can send to compete against the top dogs of the U.S., South Africa, Australia, France and another dozen or more countries.  Canadians are considered among the best shooters in the world and we have a real chance of fielding winning teams at WBC13. 

At St. Louis these 12 Canadians will each displace other Canadians who want to go. 

That’s what makes the U.S. team so competitive, they took the spots of a lot of good shooters and they are shamed if they don’t perform.  What does a stroke look like?  The face of the guy who shot four on the record in South Africa, had a rain shot in France, cross-fired on a blank target in Australia. 

Does that sound harsh?  We play nicer as Canadians, but those of us who know the feeling of not doing well at the worlds can tell you it’s no easier to come home without finishing in the top. 

Today we’re debating the fact that competing against each other in small shoots in Canada is all that’s needed to pick teams capable of performing under world pressure.  I contend that basing this choice on who does well at a Canadian shoot against 20 or so other competitors will not accomplish our objective, at least not if we want to field competitive teams.  Multiple countries appear at the large U.S. shoots, not just the Americans, and the presence of the big dogs brings match pressure.  There’s no better proving ground. 

The idea of one ‘wild card’ spot for small agg doesn’t make sense.  The idea of agg comparison not being meaningful has been discussed.  This sounds like having a last chance qualifier for guys who don’t travel outside the country.  If you insist on having one spot on Team ‘C’ chosen from ‘only in Canada’ results, then I’ll lay money that somebody who has experience at the big shoots will take that prize home anyway.  Sounds like this is a moot point of discussion. 

Is the argument really that some folks do not have the time or resources to travel?  Surely time isn’t an issue, we have very little discretionary time but will make the time during 2014 to get to the matches that we need to in order to qualify. 

So it must be all about money.  Not having enough money to shoot is really unfair.  Realizing you’re running out of bullets or primers mid-match is distressing.  It really sucks when the top 20 shooters all put in teen aggs at a Nationals when our shot-out barrels don’t have a chance of grouping under a quarter inch in trigger-pull conditions.  Living with a broken (fill in the blank) at home because you bought a new rest, action, stock takes creative justification.  Looks like many of us are on the same page. 

Not having enough money still doesn’t negate the issue that besting shooters on a home range doesn’t qualify you for the worlds, and it won’t demonstrate you are capable of handling the pressure of a big shoot against the big dogs that will show up at the worlds.  If you haven’t shot with the match pressure of a big shoot then maybe you shouldn’t be booting another Canadian off the WBC bus. 

If you are positive that you would qualify if given the chance but don’t have enough resources to travel, you can still be resourceful.  You might need to share gas and a hotel room with somebody else who’s going, ask to stay with a friend who lives nearby, stay at the range, cut discretionary spending, or work to get sponsorship funds to make it a possibility to go.  We’ve done all the above.

Vera

Offline John VM

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Re: WBC Qualifying
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2013, 05:43:41 PM »
 I must say that I have read all these threads with interest and that I am proud to be a Canadian.
   At this point I think before anything else gets started or decided, we should find out who is thinking of going to the World Shoot in St Louis. If I recall correctly you will need to be a member of the world team and you will have to have a passport. If I recall correctly the competitor chosen also had to come up with close to a grand for entrance fees and uniforms etc etc.. Please add anything else that applies so that everyone knows what they are getting involved into.
 I for one am considering getting back into the race, I still have some 8208 and a bunch of Watson bullets getting old. I think I even have a new barrel that I haven't tried. :)

Offline BobR

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Re: WBC Qualifying
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2013, 07:23:15 PM »
I started training for St. Louis on the flight home from Australia!  :o  :o  ;)

Offline cyanchycki

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Re: WBC Qualifying
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2013, 08:02:21 AM »
The only thing I can say is I spoke up and voiced my opinion.  There are things that I disagree with just like many disagree with my thoughts on this.

When I got into this sport I never wanted to get into the politics of it.  I JUST WANTED TO SHOOT.  I realize now that the glory is fading because of the politics.  I just wanted to see the sport grow.  Fix a few things.  Voice an opinion from those that I have talked to about how things were done.

I thought this game was about AGGS.  Well I guess I was wrong.  There is nothing more to say.

We can debate this until the cows come home but the forum is not the place.  Takes to much time and effort.

I apologize to all that I may have ruffled.  A process is in place.  It will be what it will be.

Good luck to all who decide to qualify for Team Canada.  I just hope that those who qualify in 2014 still put the effort in 2015 and practice outside of just the shoots.  Nothing worse than being hot and then cold.

Over and out.

Calvin
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Offline Pesky ab

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Re: WBC Qualifying
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2013, 11:40:25 AM »
If there gone Bill . Does that mean there's a chance we can get BRSC nation   wide again ? That would be cool

Offline rpollock

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Re: WBC Qualifying
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2013, 12:17:53 PM »
BRSC Memberships

http://benchrestforum.ca/index.php?topic=627.0

If someone wants to start a thread on renewing BRSC in the East I am all for it. Should be in the BRSC section though.

Offline John VM

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Re: WBC Qualifying
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2013, 04:45:43 PM »
 Calvin, you have stated your opinion and made a good argument, others have come and stated their opinion and made a good argument. Why after reading both sides would you give up if you thought their needs to be improvement. We all understand that there could be improvement, but sometimes it is not as simple as it looks. No one has shot you down, they are just giving you their experience in what has worked and what has not worked and why they think there are issues. Time to review and rethink of a better way.
 Now if you are insinuating that you are not going to try out for the world team because of other peoples opinions in an open discussion than you have just created your own excuse not to go. We do not even know how many are actually signing up yet! Chin up man, politics are politics, shooting is shooting. If you didn't sign up for politics than why let it bother your shooting. As they say Rome was not built in a day, and the road to glory is never a smooth one.

Offline cyanchycki

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Re: WBC Qualifying
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2013, 05:21:35 PM »
John, the politics will not stop me from trying to make the world team.  Politics is what it is, politics, .  There are a lot more factors.  It is a commitment for the next 2 years.  Ideally I think to have a chance one is going to have to attend 2 major matches.  The NBRSA or IBS Nationals and for me probably the East/West.  It is not the issue of vacation time it is whether the pocket book can swing it.  I  have components (powder, bullets, primers, barrels) to get me there.  The bullet situation is getting me a bit nervous.......  will I be able to get more of the bullets I have been successful with down the road?????

Then in 2015 it can be almost a 3 week committment.  If you shoot the Nationals and the World's.  A HUGE commitment. 

This discussion has nothing to do with the decision it is reality that has more to do with it.

Calvin
My house is protected by the good Lord and a GUN............
When I Die I don't wanna go Sober..................................

Offline John VM

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Re: WBC Qualifying
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2013, 05:42:24 PM »
 Calvin, if you qualify for the Worlds, then in 2015 you forget the nationals and if you don't qualify for the World then you shoot the nationals. Like you said here is your opportunity, are you going to try or regret not trying. :)

 

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