Bullets

[DanO]

Well winter is here again, so we are into the bullet making time of the year.
While going through the rather boring process of swagging cores, I got to thinking about the direction
that bullets in the BR game has taken in resent years.
One of the things that I have not been able to determine is what effect boattails and the double radius bullets have had on the results in this game.
The hot bullet today is the Hottenstein (sp?) with many of the top shooters using them.
Prior to that was the double ogive bullet from Bruno's, and prior to that was Bart's double ogive bullet.
While in Canada we suffer from easy bullet availability, I am curious to hear what others feeling/beliefs are
on this subject.
What would you think is the optimum bullet configuration for BR and why?

And a Merry Christmas to all.
DanO

[cyanchycki]

Well there buddy if I knew more about what works I would definately share it.  

Maybe I should just check my lottery ticket from Friday and I just may be able to tell you...........................................

In regards to thoughts on bullet availability and what we choose to shoot here in Canada we appear to follow what the top shooters from the US are using and gauge that against our results.  The next step is trying to get those bullets in Canada.  For some of us that shoot here in Canada, they are blessed by the location of where they live thus being able to shoot in a hub of benchrest like Missouri.

Many shooters are very good at keeping records of there performance with different bullets.  I for one HATE that just as much as trying to read Playboy.  The pictures on the other hand.......  The holdback for myself is funds.  I buy what I can, when I can, and what I can afford be it the right bullet or not.  I just want to be able to get out and shoot the best I can.  I just hope to one day be able to out tune and outshoot the person next time with whatever bullet and whatever conditions are thrown my way.

Sorry my comment was NOT constructive for you.


 

[Bill Gammon]

Something that I have said over and over, when you get a premiere bullet maker, buy tons and tons. It is all money in the bank. You will not lose. I have been shooting Hottensteins four 15 years and a lot of the top shooters in this area have been doing the same. I have bought a large number of his bullets over a period of years. Stopped a few years ago, because of inventory, and have about another 3 years to go before I run out. One person that some of you may have overlooked Bill Mitchell, here in Ontario, makes some of the best. When I run out and if I am still shooting I will be calling him, if Lowell has stopped making them. I was given a bunch of Bill's bullets a year or so ago and I was totally impressed. This is not a sales pitch, if you make a crap product, I will be the first to tell you. But on the other hand if you do good, I will be the first to tell. ^{(based on how big the cut is,EH!)}

[DanO]

Bill,

What about the Hottenstein bullet made you choose them.
Yes Lowell is a great bullet maker, but so are many others.
Was it availability? Matches won with them? I assume that these bullets
are off his old die, not the new BT die? Comparisons to what other bullets tested?
What is your preferred bullet configuration?

Without a doubt Billy makes a good bullet, I have followed him and his results
for a number of years, I believe he was using his our bullets throughout this time.
If I remember correctly they are a flat base, with approximately a 8 ogive!
I am glad he is making his product available to other shooters, as he was doing a limited
volume back in 2005 when we talked about bullet making.

DanO

[Bill Gammon]

Bill,

What about the Hottenstein bullet made you choose them.

Yes! #8 ogive, .2433 on the body and .2436 on the pressure ring, 68gr flat base. I remember back in 1978 when Dick Brownell made my first LV rifle, Shilen action, 2 barrels, etc, etc. he told me that the U of V had did a test on the perfect weight for a bullet out of a PPC case was a 68gr bullet. You look over the winnest bullet out of a PPC is a, guess what???

Yes Lowell is a great bullet maker, but so are many others.

No doubt.

Was it availability? Matches won with them? I assume that these bullets
are off his old die, not the new BT die? Comparisons to what other bullets tested?

You would have to know Lowell and know the time he spends on them. You are right his old die. I probably get 500 bullets a year from different manufacturers, actually individuals, to play with and to check them out.

What is your preferred bullet configuration?


8 to a 81/2 ogive, .2433 0n body and .2436 on the pressure ring. Going to give you some knowledge here, on a flat base bullet the pressure ring should never be greater then .0006 bigger then the body. Some people feel that the BT shoots better and visa versa. The problame is that most BT are exactly .243 on the body and if you have a tight barrel the BT might work better because there is less swaging of the bullet as it goes down the barrel. But I have given a ,243 on the body FB and the rifle shot the same. Oh Well!!

Without a doubt Billy makes a good bullet, I have followed him and his results
for a number of years, I believe he was using his our bullets throughout this time.

his, our, you lost me there.

If I remember correctly they are a flat base, with approximately a 8 ogive!
I am glad he is making his product available to other shooters, as he was doing a limited
volume back in 2005 when we talked about bullet making.

Well he has some new dies now.

DanO

[DanO]

Thanks Bill

[Joe Mendham]

  Dan  What are the ogive and measurements for your bullets ,while we're on the subject.

[Bill Gammon]

I screwed up!! I know it is hard to believe. I said the pressure ring should never be bigger then .0006 then the body measure. That should read .0003, I was thinking my bullets are .2436 on the pressure ring. Sorry

[cyanchycki]

Joe I measured some 64.5gr on the .790 jacket and some 66gr bullets on what I believe is the .825 jacket.  With my CHEAP Princess Auto micrometer I get

Body .2430
Pressure ring .2433

Again that is my readings.

Calvin

[DanO]

Joe,

My 6mm bullets are a copy of the Jeff Fowler design, which is 7 3/4 ogive.
The pressure ring on the base measures .24335.
DanO

[Joe Mendham]

  Dan
  Thanks . Your bullets shoot as good as anybodies. I shot them in Calgary last year in the unlimited and was very  happy with them. I'm sure if more people used them they would see we have a good bullet maker here in Canada.

 And Calvin if you would have sprung for the extra bucks ,you would have found that extra .oooo5 on Dan's bullets.

Joe

 

[DanO]

What weights of bullets do folks feel is optimum?
Presently I am seeing weights from 62 grs to 68 grs.
Do you have a preferrences for FB or BT?

[cyanchycki]

Will do Joe.  I will take the Christmas money I got from my Dad and order a BETTER micrometer..................

Calvin

[Joe Mendham]

  Dan     Right now anything about 66 to 68 grain on a .825 jacket, flat base.  I'd try some boat tails if they were available. Do you make a BT ?

Joe

[DanO]

Joe,

Don't have dies for them, it is kind of why I started this string of questions.
I was hoping to get an open dialog going on the what and why for's of the different
bullets types.
Some may believe that I am just plugging my own bullets, but the truth of it is, I would
like to understand what folks like in bullets and why.

I have used Bart's, Fowler's, Starke's, Bishop's in FB bullets to compare, but I was hoping for
others to step in and discuss there finding.

DanO

[John VM]

Dan, as to some of the answers I have received, one good shooter in Michigan claimed to have been shooting boat tails for years and the reason was that it was for better or smoother seating of the bullets and that flat base bullets would be damaged at the pressure ring. He went on to say that he had no proof that this was the best but his theory and his preference and it worked for him.
 From what I can tell it is the quality of the die and the jackets, everything else being held the same. The best shooting I have done was with 68 grain Berger moly,68 grain Watson's which were on a 7 ojive and Barts 66 grain wedge. All these bullets have differences, but I do believe the 7-8 ojive bullets are generally easier to tune.
 I suspect that the higher ojive and double tapers can possibly shoot better as I have experienced but they seemed harder to get back in tune when things went south, this being an agg killer

[cyanchycki]

If I new more on this subject I would say more.

One thing I did try last night was measure some of my cases that I shot last year.  I measured the outside diameter of a sized case with my CHEAP Princess Auto Micrometer.  It measured .2638 with a .264 bushing.

I measured one of the 64.5 gr Opel bullets at the body and pressure ring.  The measurement was as mentioned in a earlier post.  .2430 on the body and .2433 at the pressure ring.

I seated the bullet as I would normally into a case and got a outside measurement of .2678.  This is for a .269 chamber.  I then pulled the bullet with the hammer method being as careful as I could.  The bullet measured exactly the same in the body and pressure ring.  Looking at the pressure ring with my Loupe, I could not see anything that looked any different than a new unseated bullet.  That is with 4 thou tension on the neck.  Those bullets seat pretty firm into the cases.

Undoubtedly boat tails seat easier than flat base but from anything I have heard FB bullets appear to be easier to tune a rifle than BT bullets.  Wish I could quantify this but I leave it up to the people that have MORE KNOWLEDGE and $$$$$$$$$$.  I just follow like a student learns from there Professor.

Calvin

[MBenson]

These are my measurements on bullets that I have. Opel 66gr. Pressure Ring .24335 Body .24300 Bart's Ultra 68gr. Pressure Ring .24360 Body .24285 Bart's Boattail 65gr. Pressure Ring .24355 Body.24290 and last one I have is Lahr 65gr. flatbase(Minnesota) Pressure Ring .24330 and Body .24300 Hopes this helps anyone thinking of bullets in the near future. Murray                                                                                 

[laulumaa]

Dan,
John VM summed it up pretty good!
There are few fellers in Scandinavia using your 68 FBs in national  & intl. level and are doing pretty good with em'. Personally i've shot only Bart's 65 BTs which were made to .790" J4 jackets. Don't know the situation nowadays. In the beginning i didn't have any reference for bullets. At the time i looked statistics and decided to order BTs which seemed to be in the top of the equipment lists. I tried the FBs also, but find BTs seats smoother as stated earlier. Todays thin neck brass, N133 and hard neck tension + FBs aren't the best measuringwisely (if you measure the loaded cartridge). How much that effects in tight PPC chamber... Really don't know, you'll see the results on target i suppose. For 90% of competition shooters it's about personal believes, really don't think anyone have hard data between FBs or BTs.
Main thing is that you test, test, test your equipment, develope a well tuned load and you trust your equipment with a whole heart. Aggs are what we are shooting, not groups...

That's my 2 cent...
PS. Could there be a some kind of connection with fat BT bullets and growing .237" barrel bore diameter...